Ok - this used to be a source of great discussion - who's got a valver that makes over 180hp ? whats the spec ? where/when was it measured ? ta Rob
obviously depends on whos RR your on, we all know that just driving to stealth will give you 5-10bhp and they seem capable of getting a constant 5-10bhp across the range with the WUR mod. So going up there is a stock KR with 140bhp you might leave with a bit of paper saying 160bhp! Couldnt agree with you more about the hot air banded around these figures and I imagine that most valvers scoring 180 on the rollers are closer to 170, but how will we ever know as most places want your car to do well on the rollers....
Ive got twin zaust cams on a 9a polished ported head, it dont feel like 180 bhp to me!!! mind you it aint running at its best.
My 2.1 16v pushed 209bhp and 188lbs/ft at Stealth. Produced this last year for me, and this year for the new owner. I think the only way to secure this discussion is for the people who have had theirs on Stealths rollers to comment only. When you start mentioning different rollers/readings etc it'll get into a slamging match of who's is right etc. And as most people seem to have theirs setup at Stealth it would give a very good comparisson if nothing else, even if the figures are a little optomistic. Better add the spec. Bottom end: 2E block/decked JE 83.5mm 16v pistons 1 off modified 95.5mm deisel crank(done by me) H Beam rods/ARP bolts modified int. shaft baffled/windaged sump Head. Ported by myself. Well skimmed! titanium caps/seats Schrick springs Modified std. valves(by me) 3 angle seats/valves faces Crespo cams with internal verniers Solid tappets(Newmans) 45 webers with custom 39mm chokes Facet red top Storm 4 branch Jetex 2.5" rally system
I dont think the figs are 'that' optimistic at Stealth - not when I have been there anyhow - have numerous measurements of my engines at different times and Stealth matches well to my local RR Mikeanics and also to the Dynojet RR at Awesome My last 2 engines have been on engine dyno's and they match well to figs at Mikeanics and Awesome RRs. But as they have not been on Stealth RR directly, I will refrain from posting further details. It would be helpful if people could post cam specs and also CRs.....
Crespo V252 Duration 252@ .050" 260@1mm (bloody mild!) 300deg. 0mm lift 40/80-80/40 11.4mm valve lift Compression was around 11.6-11.8:1 on a rough calculation.(approx 1mm removed from head/block combined)
i should think a 9A with a well ported and polished head, KR or Shricks etc cams, 4 branch manifold/straight through system, WUR mod an set up would be getting quite close to that figure
kr cams are not as fruity as abf cams which in turn are not as good as 260's, 268's etc etc. one of the best abf 2L engines out there which has had an aweful lot of time / thought and a fair amount of dough belongs to Ess Three. Schrick 268 inlet cam, std exhaust cam, blyndestein head, ported manifolds and TB, touch CR increase from a skim, stock management (sometimes megasquirt but it seems to make no difference to power), lots of setup time and testing this makes 190hp. Bill had a 1900kr with ported head, pair of schrick 268's, dta managament, abf injectors, 190hp. Bills Jetta was a 2L 9a on k-jet, 260/270 split duration crane cams, ported head, 187hp. Gained more when going to throttle bodies. These are realistic figs IMO. 190 is about the limit on stock inlet systems for anything that would not be trailored to races.
its a real pita comparing cams as the durations are all quoted at different lifts but 260@1mm is a pretty hairy cam in my book..... thats pretty good compression and so will let you run more cam, big contributor to that 188ftlb.....(along with 2092ccs ) 188ftlb has got to be the most torque from an atmo valver we have seen ? 10lb ft more than mine.
I have an 9A lump, producing 198hp/154ATW @ 7100rpm, 147lb ft. 9A block Wossner pistons, 12:1 CR Cat cams, around the 276degree mark, cant remember the actual values Kent cam vernier Aluminium tops Lightend and balanced bottom end Man in a shed head Jenvy DTH bodies, omex 600 management Built by myself, with the cam timing and setup completed by Ratt Racing in Torbay A garage I worked out used to prepare a car that ran on Kjet with a modified inlet manifold, producing 220hp.. The guy used to drive that to the Nurburging from the garage it was prepared at, alough that wasn't far away..Then again is this germany and the knowledge and parts are easier to come by..
Come on Rob, out with the details As you say, your numbers appear to tie up from a few different places so either they are all wrong (?!?!?) or they are a pretty standard figure. I am interested in your results and spec regardless...
Why is it so difficult to reach 100bhp/L from N/A VAG engines? I know of an engine builder here in NI that builds competition engines and regurally gets 190-200 bhp from Vauxhall 1.6XE engines. And look at the likes of Millington engines that reach 280-300 (and more) from 2.4 N/As.
its not that difficult, but it cannot be done for 27.31 with bolt on bits from ebay. Power costs pounds - you either buy it or you are an exceptional individual with the skills to make it yourself and when you get to 100hp/l, it aint easy and its best left to the professionals IMO, you could waste a shed load of money trying to do it yourself. 180hp....fine, you can probably do that if you are a half tidy mechanic. 200hp....getting difficult......250hp, forget it, if you can do this you should open an engine shop....300hp, you are one of maybe a dozen people/outfits out there a 200hp 1.6XE will cost you what....7K at a guess ? a 250hp duratec / k-series or XE will probably cost 7-10K a 2.4 millington diamond is probably 20K very specialist parts needed (big ) and a load of experience on what works with what and how to screw it together
I am building a new one at the moment and hope to get the magic 200bhp figure , we shall see what it makes . My old one was close to 180 does that count ?? lol, it made 174bhp at stealth and that was with only minor mods 9A block standard head from 2.0 9A 50mm inlet manifold KE-Motronic , not Kjet Modded fuel pump relay setup next to main pump MRC chip Schrick 260 Cams 4 Branch manifold Carbon Homebrew airbox Oil cooler That setup did 4 years of track days without a single failure The new one is Complete rebuild using new VAG bearings and bolts KR block out to 83.5 mm Decked block and pistons , should be 11.2 CR Schrick Sump Vauxhall Blue injectors ( the 5 hole type ) Knife edged crank Lightend flywheel All parts dynamically balanced at Basset down in Swindon madmk4 head Schrick 268/276 cams Jenvey DTH ITB`S I do recall that Barney had a valver that made 201 ish bhp and that was 276/276 schrick and a ABF and the WUR mod , thats impressive
Fair point, it's all . Yes, this guy, (and others I know of), build competition engines at a cost. But you rarely hear of VAG engines being chosen as a base, it always seems ot be K-series, Duratecs, XE's etc. My Millington comment was a bit out of left field tbh, I know these cost big bucks. Local Rallyman Wesley Patterson runs a 2.4 MD in a mk2 Escort and on some certain stages he is only a few seconds slower than boys in WRC cars on tarmac.
I know my old mk1 16v probably dosn't give accurate comparison with it having been rolling roaded locally, but it didn't do too badly! kr 16v on 45 webers with 4-2-1 supersprint manifold and magnex system. It produced 174 @ the flywheel when set up locally. And as far as i know there was no head work...I still have the engine sat here, i will have a propper look one day. I think the choice of other engines over vag lumps mainly comes down to the design of the head/ports...Other lumps have much better head designs and give a better base to start with i guess? Thats where a lot of the power comes from after all. Neil.
interesting graph but I seem to recall the day we all went there, my motor did 199 and yours did 190 ? GVK's was 10hp up also on your graph edit: this thread - reading it now, bringing back some happy memories March 2004 http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9573&highlight=stealth+16v+RR RobT - 199.8 bhp, 156.7 ftlb Speedo - 191.0 bhp, 155.8 ftlb Barney - 189.6 bhp, 148 ftlb GVK - 174.3 bhp, 151.9 ftlb jonmiller - 170bhp mk3 16v kev barker 175.9 seat 20vT paul haslam jetta 16v 190bhp keith mac - mk2 16v 165bhp trev16v - mk2 8v 120bhp stealthwagon - 16v turbo 224.8bhp sexy16v mk2 16v 152.9bhp barny - mk2 16v 190bhp dean watmough mk2 16v 157bhp rob hales - mk2 16v 154bhp golfgirl - mk3 16v 169bhp girlyracer - mk2 16v 169bhp badgerbill - mk4 20vt 348bhp jamie warner - mk2 8v 121bhp
