2L kr, possible?

Discussion in '16-valve' started by skint_golfer, Dec 24, 2008.

  1. skint_golfer

    skint_golfer Forum Member

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    This is for a little side project I'm trying to get off the ground and normally my advice to others would be "chuck an abf in it" or "find a 9a bottom end" but unfortunately that looks like it wont be of any use on this occasion.

    I've searched the forum and dont seem to be able to find what I need and yes I have spotted gvk's sticky and i think it would probably contain what I'm after but none of his links work on my pc [xx(]

    with that in mind I guess the best i can do is ask, so any help, part numbers links etc would be much appretiated. cheers :thumbup:

    [:?:] can you re-build a kr as a 2 litre? if so how?

    thanks for any help and please bear in mind this is not me being lazy and not bothering to look, its just that all of the threads I've found basically say find a 2 litre engine which I cant do.

    bit annoying this considering I have an abf in the garrage [8(]

    cheers
     
  2. skint_golfer

    skint_golfer Forum Member

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    sorry, this is just to clarify something I said (I do tend to witter on [:-B] )

    what I need to know is which crank/rod/piston combo do I need? and what I would have to bore my block out to?

    all the other rebuild parts I can get of my tame vw parts monkey that I keep down the end of my road... :lol:

    cheers
     
  3. barny Forum Member

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    whys the abf no use ?
     
  4. skint_golfer

    skint_golfer Forum Member

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    regs basically.

    my understanding is I must retain the original block and head castings and can rework these out to 2L but not swap a 2 litre into the car or replace the 1.8 bottom end with a 2 litre one.

    did vag make a 2L short block?
     
  5. barny Forum Member

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    My mate had a kr bored n stroked to 2.0, it now lives in seanlazyass's mk2. Its an RE2000 engine, gti engineering i think...

    Quick google ....

    16V RE2000 conversion.
    This is the top of the range MK2 16V conversion for all-out performance! Power is increased to give a top speed of 133mph with acceleration to match.

    The conversion comprises:

    Steel crankshaft of 92.8mm stroke,
    Cylinder block specially machined with 82.5mm bore,
    Lead-Indium heavy duty crankshaft bearings,
    Alloy pistons with valve clearance cut-outs,
    Gasflowed cylinder head,
    Re-profiled inlet and exhaust valve throats,
    Gasflowed inlet and exhaust manifold,
    Selected valve springs,
    Modified injection system.

    Any use ?
     
  6. skint_golfer

    skint_golfer Forum Member

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    lots thanks barny..... i.a.n.b. is currently reading this thinking "so which scrappy is he planning to get that lot from? and how many bolts is he going to want me to order?"
     
  7. swaffGTI Forum Member

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    Yeh they did, a 9A or ACE can be used to donate some parts

    I have considered this with what I have in the garage,

    - it would require a re-bore to 82.5mm (the 2l pistons size) as the KR is 81.5mm i believe

    - the use of the 2l crank, some clearance work may be needed inside the block
    (around no.4 rod/oil pump area)

    - You should be able to use either the KR or 9A/ACE rods as they should be the same dimensions although im not confident on the gudgeon pin size comparitively. anyone else?

    I would 'dry' build the block and test for clearance, then send it away to have any engineering work done

    There was a thread posted recently on this and how the oil squirters may contact the pistons etc,

    I'll see if I can find it

    http://www.clubgti.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=176726&highlight=oil+squirters

    The truth being if you have parts already then it could be built compartively cheaply
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2008
  8. dUff

    dUff Administrator Admin

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    yep that we me doing the oil squirter's

    i have now sussed out all the other issues with doing this
    in short they are all down to the choice of crank , i am using the 9A crank

    If you do the same you need to do the following
    oil - squirter mod and use scat style rods , has better clearance, VAG bolt , the heads hit the squirters

    Then you need to use the following to get the correct oil flow and clear the crank
    if you fit the KR following items the crank cannot rotate and it hits the intermediate shaft gear

    9A intermediate shaft ( smaller gear than KR )
    9A gear that connects to intermediate shaft ( bigger gear than KR)
    9A oil pump it 3mm wider gears inside

    These 9A mods i reckon were all done by factory to get the same oil flow from using
    a smaller gear on the intermediate shaft

    Now fitting the oil 9A pump gear is not a simple task and requires more mods
    You can do it 2 ways

    - Machine out the bung hole to suit the 9A bung ( its bigger )
    and follow this down with the cutter to the bottom

    That allows the gear to be inserted from the top

    - Dremel or bigger the metal out where the gear sits , the castings are the same at this point, i have done extensive measurements and checking

    That allows the gear to be inserted only from the sump entry

    Hope that makese sense , easy way is to use the proper RE cranks i guess , i did it the hard way

    another tip is to use the AUdi S2 top half shells these are excellent
     
  9. TrackCab16v Forum Member

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    ive sripped down a early gti enginering motor , and all they seemed to do was ,rebore the kr block to take standard 2l pistons, removed oil sqirters, fit 2lcrank , 18oo oil pump, fully balanced internals , .... ther you have a early re 2000. ;) surprisingly they worked real well and gave good power.
     
  10. i.a.n.b Forum Junkie

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    :lol: See what we can find saturday.
     
  11. Mike_H Forum Addict

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    The GTI engineeering 2.0 16v's were done that way (and they seemed to do them a couple of different ways) probably because there weren't any 2.0 16v engines to use when they started out.

    To convert a KR to 2.0 is just a load of hassle for no benefit. You say you need to retain the original block, and can't fit a 9A - Why??
     
  12. skint_golfer

    skint_golfer Forum Member

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    regs Mr H, pain in the **** regs... [xx(]

    my stumbling block is this, my car is built up too far in spec to compete in one series but not far enough to compete in another. I'm at the point of bolting on coilovers, brake consumables and fitting my engine + management.

    If I go one way I have to strip, sell and replace most of whats already done along with the g60 arches, skirts etc that came fitted when I got her and replace all the injection system, ecu, wiring loom, standard hubs/brakes and heater that arnt present/in use.

    If I go for the other series I can retain all I've done but need to build up a 2l kr to be competative in the class the car will fall in. I already have throttle bodies, injectors and a demister/heater that ways nowt sat there ready + I'll be trying to negotiate a club discount with P4P on their polly window sets come the new year.

    I do have an ady in storage that was/is destined for a 16v head and turbo (machined pistons only cost about 40!) that I could pilfer for bits. I guess thats a tall block so the crank wouldnt do though?

    If I could just drop the abf next to my garage door in I would believe me! so much less hastle for the same result [:s]

    throw a few series at me that a abf/9a mk2 would be eligable for? thats my alternative I guess.

    thanks for the help so far :thumbup:
     
  13. Mike_H Forum Addict

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    It's the rods and pistons that are different between short and tall block, generally. The cranks can be swapped over, I think.
     
  14. dUff

    dUff Administrator Admin

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    when i did it i found that if you fit the crank from a 9A in a KR its hits on the intermediate shaft gear

    like so

    [​IMG]

    GTI engineeering must have got over this problem somehow , not sure tho


    VW swapped about like so to get round this problem, and i have tried all the combinations like so

    KR shaft and gear in a standard KR
    [​IMG]

    9A shaft and gear in a bored out KR with modded oil squirters
    [​IMG]

    The 2 idler gears side by side
    [​IMG]

    And to show VW only swapped the sizes , here is the 9A shaft and a KR gear
    [​IMG]
    Look they are exacty the same size
     
  15. skint_golfer

    skint_golfer Forum Member

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    cool! cheers for all the help so far. If I'd have just sat down and done a fist full of solid research on differen series before building what I've done I could have avoided this issue... live and learn I guess [:s]

    as a side point dose anyone know the difference in stroke given by the tall block crank over the kr one?

    infact as I have a spare bare kr block outside and my ady is only built hand tight I'm off to go build an engine.... back in a minute :lol: [:D]
     
  16. swaffGTI Forum Member

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    Steve Creswell Wrote in an old copy of Golf+ saying,

    "The 92.8mm 2-litre crank will fit inside a DX, EV, PB and many other 230mm blocks. The 1.8 block has adequate clearance around the rod throw of numbers 1, 2 and a small boss on the forward surface needs a little grinding for Number 3."

    "Number 4 is a different matter. The intermediate shaft must have the gear for the distributor/oil pump drive machined down to about half its width from the inside edge and the old carb eccentric can be ground off at this point for good measure."

    "The oil pump mounting flange must also be carefully hand ground down along the edge and slightly underneath with a die grinder, while number four con rod needs some clearancing around the forward area of the bolt top to help it miss the intermediate shaft gear. The best way to do this is to assemble the 92.8mm crank and pistons/con rods into the block with old bearings and no piston rings using the old pistons before you have it re-bored. This allows you to grind away to achieve the desired 1mm minimum clearance for swing-by before the block is bored."

    "The oil pump body and drive shaft need clearancing too but but the easy way to achieve this is to use a golf 3 2E oil pump"

    "The pistons for a 2-litre DX/EV/PB etc. are from the audi 3A engine and are very difficult to source from anyone except Audi."

    Sounds interesting, he suggests the same as duff about the intermediate shaft gear not having enough clearance but I can't get my head around what part of the gear he suggests to grind away.

    I presume he means reduce the width of the gear length ways.

    Trackcab16v do you have any pictures of the inside of the GTi engineering block?

    Im interested to see if there is an easier way around the intermediate shaft clearance
     
  17. dUff

    dUff Administrator Admin

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    Good work finding out that info from the golf mag what year was that

    i think it would be stick it on a lathe and machine the back face of the gear , from my pic you can see that i have tried to align all the holes in the photo , so the VAG bolt head hits on the back of the gear, its very tricky to take those pics but will do some more next time i am down the workshop , still ill in bed at the mo manflu lol

    scat rods have loads more clearance and the have no nut and use ARP`s from the opposite direction but they foul as well ,
     
  18. skint_golfer

    skint_golfer Forum Member

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    Thanks cerips, swaffgti, duff and all other contributers! :thumbup: [:*:]

    this thread is getting very exciting for me. The more it go's on the more bits I'm realising I already have in my garage that will work for this build! all stuff I'd just forgotten about, had tagged for other future projects or just plain disregarded! and I have access to the machines at college to do the rebore and clearance work properly myself now I've started my corse [:D]

    all i think I need is pistons!

    [:?:] speaking of pistons, could I please confirm 3 things on the basis of swaffgti's post:

    firstly, is that with some clearance work and a small rebore it's possible to use the crank, rods and pistons from a tall block engine to get 2L? (please forgive the over simplification)

    secondly, could the crank, rods and pistons come from an abf bottom end as its a tall block?

    thirdly, would the abf pistons cleare the kr valves properly? (assume a standad cam for now)

    basically my scrappy has one in apassat and I'm off to mollest it for its arb today so I might as well go to town on it if I'm there anyway ;)

    cheers
     
  19. 82erGTI Forum Member

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    No, if you use the rods from a tall block, then the pistons will stick out of the deck of the block. The throw might be same as in a 9A, but the rods are longer...
    You want to use 144mm rods (and 9A or 6A pistons)

    So i would say, get the crank out of the ABF, then use your KR rods and buy 9A pistons...

    Some interesting info on the clearancing, as i was also thinking if my KR lets go one day, maybe i could rebuild it making it a 2l in the process...
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2008
  20. skint_golfer

    skint_golfer Forum Member

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    purely on a parts basis its lookin like 144mm kr rods with a 92mm abf crank and I guess abf pistons as they should be 92.5 mm bore with the correct valve cut outs for a 16v head

    just need to double check the bore size....
     

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