Which is the best engine to go with ITB?

Discussion in 'Throttle bodies & non-OEM ECUs' started by etang789, Jul 27, 2010.

  1. etang789 New Member

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    Which is the best engine to go with ITB? I am very confused different engine combos like ABF KR ...etc

    I assume going with a larger size engine and pair with ITB is a better choice because you will still have some low rpm torque...

    At this moment I know I want a MK2 GTI with 16v with ITB and Megasquirt in the future...

    Reason is I fell in love with 16v after driving another VW club members car. I currently own a Mazda MX-5 and a VW MK5 GTI...

    Reason of deciding to use Megasquirt with this project is because I also use Megasquirt on my MX-5, and most MX-5 club members with great experiences.

    I am going to do this project with a friend, and my car is gonna be ITB...his is gonna be 1.8T ....and both will be sourced from UK

    help please
     
  2. drunkenalan Paid Member Paid Member

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    the ABF is your best bet.
     
  3. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    6A, 9A, or ABF are the mainstream choices for max capacity (2.0).
     
  4. chrismc Forum Junkie

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    I think a 9A/6A/ACE short block 16v is a better choice in a mk2 over the ABF as it allows an Eibach strut brace to be used. Off-the-shelf manifolds also fit too.

    A worthwhile consideration on a performance mk2
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2010
  5. Admin Guest

    But when you run ITB's there are now inlet manifolds to foul the Eibach strut brace ;)

    From my experiances.

    ABF for the bottem end, good stock bottem ends with ITB's will put out around 160lbft and 170+bhp, add cams ported head and vernier and you can shift the range of the torque and increase overall BHP to around 200bhp. If you are in the search for more BHP then you will need to increase the compression ratio.

    cheers Tom.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 27, 2010
  6. danster Forum Addict

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    Dare I throw NA 20v ITB in the ring. :o
     
  7. chrismc Forum Junkie

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    Good point[:$]

    HOWEVER, the extra block height still poses issues with the exhaust/4 branch and straight air horns will also foul the bonnet when using an ABF.;)

    Fitting ITBs to a stock motor is waste of time and effort for the gain IMO. Only with doing if you are going to use extra CR/RPM and hot cams that the stock system cannot handle...
     
  8. danster Forum Addict

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    Very good point.
    VW Singh's engine is proof in to that. It would be very interesting for Gurd's and Toyotec to install a set of ITBs and see if it made any difference at all. The torque that engine puts out at the moment with std plenum is very impressive. Inlet runner length may have something to do with that. Something you toil to get when installing ITBs on a 16v or 20v for that matter.
    There was a lad on the megasquirt forum that had ITBs on a 16v and ended up returning to stock plenum as it was far better.
     
  9. Admin Guest

    I beg to differ, if you are working to a budget (which we all are) then with a stock bottem end you can see close to 200bhp relatively cheaply, when the bottem end fails it will cost a couple of hundred to put right. 200bhp in a MK2 platform is pleanty for a bit of fun, if you want more power then i would surgest turbo/supercharging, 1.8T etc as the cost is going to be relatively less.

    This had not been an issue for me, but the bulk head needed a little manipulation. TSR sell tall block manifolds now, but you can use the standard manifold and still see good power.
     
  10. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    Tell that to NigeP;).

    It is all in the mapping...
     
  11. chrismc Forum Junkie

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    Yup.

    There is plenty of scope for improving the stock engine whilst maintaining plenum injection.

    My old ITBd 9A bought from mattd had schrick cams and jenvey 45s. A solid 190BHP. The very best k jet valvers (ianb/Graham Scott of tsr) matched it for power on track though....says it all.

    I had better driveability and noise but little else

    More compression and even more RPM would have pushed me to the next level and 200+BHP, but this would have been yet more expenditure[8(]
     
  12. Admin Guest

    They were not doing it right then, more torque can be had from ITB's on a standard bottem end ;).

    Gurd's engine put out an increadible amount of torque and bhp it was a great achivement:thumbup:, if you are looking for 170bhp - 180bhp i would do what Gurd's did but add cams and P&P, but if you are after 180bhp or more plus the sound track then ITB's FTW, the stock plenum and compression will hold you back. All the valvers I have seen make close to 200bhp with plenum had higher compression bottem ends which cost lots .

    ITB's for the cheap 190-200bhp on stock bottem end. Plus the noise. :thumbup: And you save weight over the plenum. :lol:
     
  13. chrismc Forum Junkie

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    A lot of this conjecture depends on the dyno lottery of course.

    ~200BHP purely from bolting ITBs onto an ABF??[:s] No extra rpm or compression??
     
  14. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    Unfortunatly you peak values for your mods are on a specific rolls and bear no reference to peharps an std compression engine w/itbs tested on a "tough love dyno" at 184BHP@6800rpm with only 15mins of WOT calibration. Plus the drivablity is not really accessed on a dyno and can be subjective or tailoured to user requirements.
    From my experience with optimising what I have from these engines, the base ABF motor is a cracking lil engine. Even better when you can fully calibrate it with a few bolt ons.
    You would be surprised at what these things can do with ITBs added to the stock motor. It is all in the mapping though.
     
  15. Admin Guest

    But was yours stock compression? and were ianb's etc running higher comp? Its all about the cost.
     
  16. Mike_H Forum Addict

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    In answering the original point, I'd go for an ABF, because it's tried and tested, and most of the stock hardware can be used as-is with megasquirt.

    As for the next steps on Gurds' car, if it was mine, I'd give the head a skim (0.5mm?), put in a set of mild cams (shrick 260 or similar), and a ported head. I'd be surprised if that didn't get 190+ bhp with good driveability, on remapped MSEFI. I think he should get a roll cage fitted first though ;)
     
  17. Admin Guest

    No extra compression or rpm needed, cams and ported head helps, but its all in the mapping and the inlet track length. :thumbup:
     
  18. chrismc Forum Junkie

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    My engine was mapped at track n road by Steve Greenald

    193bhp @ 7300, 148lbs/ft peak. Dyno Dyn RR.

    The maths doesn't add up to me when fitting ITBs to a stock compression motor and not revving it any harder liberates ~50BHP??
     
  19. danster Forum Addict

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    It certainly is an interesting subject with many different options.
    Cost wise though, an ecu, tbs and extensive mapping is going to cost a fair old bit.

    Keeping it simple with a set of Webers is another option, and depending what the car is going to be used for, a lower final drive and optimised gear ratios will make a big difference too.
    You are going to need a LSD to help put this new found power down as well.
    170 to 200bhp in a mk1 or 2 golf is going to give you plenty to deal with anyway. Learning how to drive and going round the corners better through improved handling will probably bring lap times down more than any more power up to a point.
     
  20. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    That is better asumming you peak work was at 6100rpm? And that is a good place that Track and Road.


    ~ 50bhp from what baseline though 160bhp@XXXX rpm, 140bhp@xxxx rpm. The Maths summarises the the work done in time as a unit Power. But is not about "BHP". Real tuners do not even bother with that. Control manage the ability to breathe and you get "Big" numbers and a bonus :thumbup:.
     

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