Hi following on from a discussion in Infinty's build thread im interested to find out factual experiance of the upper limits of the 020. I remember reading many threads on the dif rivets letting go but at what point will a LSD 020 start to fail? I remeber also reading a thread from GVK and him having problems stripping gears!?! are the actual gear cogs different in the two boxes and is the 020 design enough to be a problem? I run a 020 ATM (it has been good to me so far/has bolts instead of the rivets) and want to add an LSD to the car in the future, do I 02A up or stick with the 020, ill be running around 170lbft in a stripped MK2. What torque have people experianced in the past with the 020? Cheers Tom.
I think installing an LSD and crownwheel bolt kit to a box that has been overhauled and checked with good bearings and synchros makes for a pretty good box. A lower final drive ratio helps get the load out of the box due to mechanical advantage / leverage too. Most boxes I have seen fail appear to do the diff rivets, diff pin, or output shaft bearing collapse. The first two more likely to be caused by the traffic light grand prix or wheel spinning with steering lock applied. Even if they do not fail at that point I would expect it is actions like this that start the rivets and pin failure. I have heard of 020 5th gears stripping their teeth on big power cars. There are different tooth styles though. Some have many fine small teeth and others have less larger teeth, but with a very similar overall ratio. Could be this and also incorrect oil levels due to the question mark on the level plug on different years of boxes. Bear in mind that some diesels use the 020 box and they put out a hefty whack of torque. I have never broken an 020 in autocross, single venue rallying (both with std diffs), then rallying and numerous track sessions with lsd diff fitted. 02A internal gear linkages are supposedly a weak point. The boxes are heavier too. Trade offs need to be made somewhere.
I think you got the thought to start of this thread from me on infinitys thread, ive had a little hunt around and found this, pretty much says what danster has said though. An LSD and diff bolf kit isnt cheap tho!! http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=185787
I rebuilt my 8v box for my mk1 one, usual stuff that a complete rebuild gets etc. Stood up to the 209bhp 188ft/lbs(stealth rollers, probably about 31bhp on Eddies haha) on a daily basis. Only problem I've heard from the last owner is the clutch dying. The 02a gears are marginally larger, and depending on the ratio some of the actual teeth are the same size/thickness. Hubs do looks more substantial, diff housing and crownwheel/pinion are larger, but can suffer the same as the 020, esecially the stupid single rivet that holds the main planetry shaft in the diff. It snaps and destroys it all. I think one of the main things people need to remember is is that 020's now have done alot of millage, and the bulk of those have been hammered and run low on oil. Add to this a tuned 2 litre engine, and an aggressive driving style and you'll end up with.........a box full of smashed metal. If you intend to use an 020, it's gotta be cracktested, checked for any damage and parts replaced and rebuilt properly. It should stand up to the abuse from a strong n/a engine. (ps,the above is just my opinion from my own experience, none of these boxes were intended for motorsport use, but for normal road use. If it dies on track, you can't really blame it)
I appriciate your thoughts and experiances, for me it comes down to weight first and costs second, the 020 is quite a bit lighter, the (lightended) fly wheel and clutch save quite abit too and more importantly it is rotating weight. I like the feel in the clutch pedal and the rod change action. I just dont want to experiance lots of rebuild costs due to stripped gears. The plan is to go around 4.2 final drive, do you think this will help to relieve the stress on the geras? where does this then get transfered too? the diff bearings?
What kind of weight difference are we talking about between 020 and 02A? Including all the extra clutch tomfoolery. I'm in two minds about whether to upgrade from 020 to 02A but I've already started the ball rolling =/ I'm running 240ftlb on a well maintained and repeatedly rebuilt 2Y with LSD but a bigger turbo is in the cards...
I think if you get an 020 box built with an LSD, crownwheel bolt kit, bearings checked, synchro hubs checked, and a 4.25 final drive ratio, you would have a pretty robust setup. The lower FD allows the torque out of the box and into the shafts better than a taller ratio. Just think long levers or low gear on your mountain bike to help visualise this. In fact, think of going up a hill on your push bike in a high gear. You are standing up and putting a lot of pressure on the pedals, giving the chain so much grief that you think it may snap. Go up the same hill in a far lower gear and the chain does not see half as much effort acting on it. This lower gear will reduce the internal loads on all the parts of the box, including the snychro hubs and "weak" 5th gear.
So weights are: 020 and LSD 36.00kg 020 Clutch parts. Lightend Fly wheel weight 3.86kg Clutch cover 3.5kg Clutch plate 1.198kg Flywheel to clutch cover bolts 108g TOTAL lightend 8.666kg 020 + lightend cltch 44.666kg roughly 02A and LSD. 45.00kg 02A Clutch parts. Lightend Fly wheel weight 4.772kg Clutch cover 4.750kg Clutch plate, organic sprung 1.418kg Cover to flywheel bolts unknown, 108g TOTAL G60std lightend 11.162kg 02A + G60std lightend 56.162kg roughly 56.162kg or 44.666kg = saving of 11.496kg All figures borrowed from other threads, gearbox wiegths are approx and 02A varied 2kg i used lightest measurement.
Correct. But the box ratios depend on what the car is being used for. Take for example a GTI and 4+E box. The latter being higher geared and fitted in a car with less power than the former. There is no way a 1.6 carb with 75bhp is ever going to rev out in top with a 3.66 FD and 0.74 5th gear. It does however manage to propel itself along and give reasonable economy without the engine revs being high and making it noisy in the car. Motorsport will generally not have these requirements, and with an extended rev range with a tuned engine, a lower FD can be used with great benefit.
Mine's not a race car Turbo makes it quite thirsty, but don't want to blow 5th gear if that's the weakest link in the chain. Hence going down the 02A box with VR6 FD route.
My 020 in the ex-Mattd itb'd car was faultless. Other transmission components failed though. Flywheel bolts, helix paddle friction disc to name two. A rebuilt 020 with a Quaife should be fine IMO. My current car is now on it's 2nd 020. Fifth gear started breaking up on the first box. Oil level appeared fine. As mart says- these boxes are ~20years old now and the vast majority will have never been opened. A sympathetic rebuild is sufficient for n/a applications IMO
Smudge, If you lose the 16v head and opt for an 8v, that saves another 10kgs. With an alloy block and no intermediate shaft? It just gets better.
Trying to find out what the 4.2 final drive come from. Does anyone have a part number or gearbox code?
AVX - 1.6 TD ECO (may not be a UK car) (4.25). Also a GY from a "3+E Pick up", which is a 4.17. Otherwise a 5 speed Maestro or Montego 1300cc gearbox 3+E Pick up (4.25). There is usually one of these CWPs on ebay for circa 150.
