What's the differences between Golf and Corrado cams?

Morning. Is there much off a difference brtween corrado VR6 and OBD2 Golf Cams? I know the part no.s are different so was thinking the corrado ones are abit lumpyer.

I can get a pair for 20 and need to do the chains over christmas so is it worth putting in corrado cams as a cheap up grade? I already have Clone manifold (worth 5bhp with ported throttle body, rolling road print out to prove), 6 branch, lightened flywheel and 3.9FD, or does anyone have a pair of after market cams for sale.

Many thanks

 

hi ive a set of 94 obd1 vr6 cams and a set of obd2 from a sharan engine , (unsure regards corrardo , but both of mine sets measure the same , with differnert part numbers , as i was told auto cams were differnert to manual all seems bull rubbish tbh as all these ive checked are the same

 

Thanks for the info powernut. Etka list the same part number for all golf's (ODB1 and 2) and shows the Sharan having the same cams aswell. There must of been more than just 100cc and a bigger throttle body that gave the Corrado 16bhp more.

 

"On Board Diagnostic 1 and 2 cams???.


What does US emission monitoring have to do with European cams on a 2.9, let alone full load power and torque.

The ABV (2.9) was also offered in the Golf 3/Passat Syncro with a M3.8.1 ECU, with the Passat/Corrado using the early M2.9.1 varient.
Both engines for Golf 3 and Corrado and the different controls were homologated to 190PS@5800rpm (184PS for Passat) and 181lbft@4200rpm on 98RON. Passat reduced peak power output is due to calibration (ECU part number different).

The cams for all 2.9 engines are the same :-

Cam for Zylinders 1, 3 and 5 = 021109101M
Cam for Zylinders 2, 4 and 6 = 021109102A

The AAA (2.8) engine was fitted to Golf FWD, Sharan and Passat from 92>98. Controllers used were M2.7 w/Dizzy and LH MAF, M2.9.1 w/6 pole coilpack, 5 wire MAF and M3.8.1 w/motorised adaptable throttle for idle, HFM5 MAF, and lambda adaptation.
The cams regardless of control system are:-

Zyl 1, 3 and 5 021109101N
Zyl 2, 4 and 6 021109102B.

This engine was homologated at 174PS@5800 rpm and 175lbft@4200rpm on 95 RON.
US spec engines that run OBD1 and 2 emission monitoring stds and 91 RON have slightly reduced output at 172PS. The loss in output is due to calibration.

The AES (2.8) was fitted to the Tranporter and is rated 140PS@4800rpm and 180lbft@3200rpm on 95 RON. The controller is a Bosch M3.8.1. The performance for the engine is due to calibration, intake/aircharge system and change in cams to enhance low down torque.

The cams for the engine are identifed as:-

Zyl 1, 3 and 5 021109101Q
Zyl 2, 4 and 6 021109102D

AES and ABV are European engines. AAA was more of a global engine.

Hope this more than answers your question.

 

Hope this more than answers your question.

No and whats the facepalm for?

I asked the question " What is the difference in corrado and golf cams"

I don't care about all the other b%$locks.

I know the part numbers for all the cams and what came in what, I can use Etka too.

I want to know the difference in profile, duration and timing and was it the cams that made up the difference in power between 190bhp corrado with OBD1 and 174bhp golf with OBD1 because 100cc alone is never going to make that much difference.

 

You are now a bit clearer. I actually was looking into the same thing myself and researched the differences. But your 3 posts and attitude, suggesting that the other information I stated was "*******s", something I avoid speaking on here, puts me off.
100 CC, via bore in this case will lead to an increase in torque over the AAA code. Cams determine where and how this happens.

PS. Referring to an European only engine and suggesting US "OBD1 and 2" as a means of engine year of identification, shows unfortunately you need to a bit more informed.

 

There are 2 other parts that are easily different on the 2.9 ABV engine to that on the 2.8 AAA which I have swapped over.

These included the trottle body: Inside the 2.8 you'll see that there is a 'ramp' that is said to 'smooth' the flow by some whilst others say is less restrictive.

(Thanks to VR6.com) The 2.8 AAA throttle body is on the LEFT and the 2.9 throttle body is on the RIGHT! Notice the differences from the ramp.



The other which I have taken a pic and attached below is the inlet manifold. The 2.9 ABV inlet manifold (top) is 'larger' and again less restrictive as compared to the 2.8 which is the lower one. You can't really tell the difference from the top side (which you normally see) but the difference is clear as day as i've shown in my pics below when looking below. There is a large increase in volume on the 2.9.



Great info Toyotec as I knew calibration had a lot to play with the other versions but also wondered key differences in the transporter engine when looking at replacement engines.

 

The only reason i referred to OBD1 and 2 was cause an OBD2 car always makes more than the stated 174 and its not due to the cams. I have not suggested anything to do with US models, we got both OBD1 and 2 here aswell.

I'm sorry if i sound as if i have an attitude but all i want to know was the cam specs, I even said in my first post that i know the parts are different, and I know what a cam does as i work with them all day as a rolling road operator, this is why I never use forums, I'm a do'er not a talker.( and i'm not saying your just a talker toyotec, as i can see you know that your doing)

 

G-Man, thanks for the photos but that still doesn't tell me about the cams, i already have clone 2.9 manifold and ported throttle body.

 

All I could find is
AAA engine
Valve timing at 1mm valve lift
IVO ATDC 8
IVC ATDC 228
OVO BTDC 217
OVC ATDC 3
which would mean both have duration of 220 degrees

gives you a starting point perhaps

 

VR6 vs ABV vs AAA camshaft specs.

@iwanaturbo. A good "doer" gathers data and maybe a "talker" to help other weaker "doers" become better.

With the head casting the same on both varients.

Infomation from Corrado.de

AAA Motor
Camshafts 021 109 101 N &
021 109 102 B
Duration 220 CA at 1mm lift
Centerline 115
Exhaust opens 42 BBDC, Closes at 2 BTDC.
Intake opens 8 ATDC, Closes at 228 ABDC
Valve lift 10.2mm

ABV Motor
Camshafts 021 109 101 M &
021 109 102 A
Duration 220 CA at 1mm lift
Centerline 119
Exhaust opens 50 BBDC, Closes at 10 BTDC.
Intake opens 8 ATDC, Closes at 228 ABDC
Valve lift 10.2mm.


According to that data the exhaust lobes are 10 advanced on the ABV than there are on the AAA engines.

Actual Toyotec testing.

VR6 2.8 M2.9.1 and 3.8.1 give the same curves from what I have tested plus or minus test to test noise. Even ropey looking M2.7 dizzy VR6 cars can perform the same if in good engine condition.
A STD VR6 one feels very docile compared to a properly remapped one. *177lbft or so vs *190lbft makes a difference to feel, even on the tall 3.39FD.
A STD VR6 2.9 can be remapped to 200+bhp@6000rpm and 205lbft @ 4200-4700rpm in std form.
You will need bigger cams on your 2.8 with higher rev limit achieve similar BHP peaks but the torque just peaks higher at ~197lbft. Still no match for the lower response of the larger 2.9liter engine.

*Actual figures referenced from 450DS dyno.

 

On my M3.8.1 system, I have actually modified my J338 throttle module to remove the hump but found no real difference to WOT power and torque. And this is with throwing calibrations at the car. The response became much sharper at low engines speeds from low to partially high part loads.
Currently experimenting with reducing mulitplication fuel adpatives as the car over time has the tendancy to run richer than originally mapped.
The Golf3 4WD plenum, if it is different in chamber volume would be a good experiement to my current setup. Post 6000rpm on std hardware do hold back on these though.

 

nice info , never knew regards thottle bodies , but its got me thinking , question for toyotec,, u know the vr6 tps , are these all wired the same on vr6 engines as ive noticed theres differnert shapes , yet still have the 3 pins , as im thinking this maybe causeing my engine runing isuises , as i removed my tps to find some others dont fit correct due the centre pin which is thicker on mine compaired to another i have , as engine runs better with tps unpluged? ive no faults but after cleaning thottle body/idiol valve, replaceing checking vac pipes and checking for air leaks under boost (boost cap/compressor)soon as i start engine revs to 3000rpm and very steady drops to 720rpm , in vag tps angle is 12.1 , just a pain as when i drive the buggar dose the same and a **** to slow down when driving ,,, just woundered if u might know or if uve come across this fault , , also vag show blow temp sensor is working so i dint think it was that causeing this

 

Thank you Toyotec, that is exactly what i was after. I found on the OBD2 motors that a heavily ported throttle body (de-ramped and throttle shaft thinned down) was worth 2.5bhp on my Sun Ram12 with another 2.5bhp from a Clone manifold (back to back testing, same day, same temps). Out of intrest the ebay 6 branch was worth F all.

 

iwanaturbo, this was just testing done on standard factory engine calibration?

& also re-tested at a later date to confirm the vehicle hasn't moved back to standard with fuel adaptation?

 

Yes, standard calibration and retested at later dates, more than once.

 

Happy to help.

Can't argue with that if that is what you found.
This does differ from extensive testing from my own "correlation" vehicle, where I have ECU access to tweak controls to suit hardware changes. The mod to the throttle does make the vehicle "feel more powerful", but closer observation reveals this is due to increase throttle area having an effect on response from lower loads, something you may always measure at WOT depending on which rpm full load is applied.
If the engine is aggressively mapped ie. at LBT/MBT, this effect can be unpleasant to drive.

I would be more interested in your torque profile, pre and post throttle module modification to observe any improvements along with your dyno corrections and method.

Interesting observation about the 6 branch header. Was it 6-2-1 or 6-1? fitted to updated exhaust system... Tested back to with modified or std throttle module? And calibration changes for the new parts?

Good "doers" call tech items by the right name. Dispells myth and makes the "doer" more accurate.

PS. European VR6 vehicles have all US OBD2 functionallity switched off in ECM software, and do not run an EGR valve, secondary air pump and a cat monitor sensor (after catalyst sensor). Euro software coding, due to hardware configuration, is different to US coding where OBD2 is mandatory.
I know what you are trying to identify re-"OBD2" and VR6 engines, but this sounds more "vw-vortex" derived than actually understanding the controller names and application. You do not hear this jargon applied to 92-98 ABF engines which, by people's street terms were produced well wtihin the OBD1 and 2 era. I wonder why...

 

Later throttle 8 pin -1 modules controlled by M3.8.1 modules are motorsied and have adaptive idle control. They also run 2 TPS sensors wired opposite. This throttle was used on most post 95 VW engines until ME7.
You can still use first TPS signal in aftermarket ECM applications.
Do not know which controller or TPS you use to help.

 

ill explain a little better all the thottles i have are none 8pin ones , these are all just have 3pin tps units on them , yet there all differnert shapes , i.e square/small round and ones like a large dimiond type shape, as i just wounderd if all off these are basicly wired the same ,

now the confuseing bit my loom was a 95 obd1 5pin maf loom , but because of the usa ecu ,bm code , i rewired to a 4pin maf instead, other then the 2 small issiuses slightly rich when up to engine tempture , which i think its the short maf pipe (yet ive have a good stable idiol on it) and this engine reving up to 3k all the time with the idiol valve,which i carnt seem to sort ,

 

First problem with that is if you have a proper US ECU and the software coding (OBD1 monitoring) is different to european, plus the MAF signal on the HFM5 MAF "4 wire" is different to what should be on there. If there are then changes to the software as it relates to your confused air charge settings becuase of the turbo, then I could only see the idle air valve trying to compenstate in the wrong desired way.
Why did you not use a european ECU and start the modifications from there using the std input components?