Couple of 020 questions, flywheel bolts and output flanges

I stripped my ABF of the 02a gearbox and clutch arrangement earlier today. I refitted the 210mm Sachs Sporting clutch kit I bought for the 020 gearbox I am putting on.

I do not have any flywheel to pressure plate bolts as the 02a ones are too short, and I would like new ones anyway. The part no. I have for them is :

N 100 134 01 - 12 pointed M7x40x20

Did we a conclusion as to whether there are any readily available uprated bolts on the market? I know daved and co did some extensive research into the subject last year.

I also swapped the 90mm output flanges from the 020 for some 100mm ones. This was a 5 minute job as there does not appear to be much spring tension on the springs behind the flanges. Is this due to have a Quaife LSD fitted or do I really need new springs?

I need new seals for the output flanges anyway, so I may as well replace the springs too.

The part no. I foudn via Wagenstad is:

020 498 085 G

This is described as 'repair kit for joint flange'

Can anyone confirm what is included in this kit? From the pic it looks like everything including the output flange! I can't see a seperate part no. for the seal behind the output flange?

I need the spring, circlip, and seal for behind the flange and obviously the seal for the inside of the flange too, nearest the inner CV.

Any help greatly received

 

Will.

For all of the reasons given in this thread:

http://www.clubgti.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=215756&highlight=APR

I don't think that you will find higher grade bolts! At the same time, I can't see that they will help, as the basic design is so poor! The only way to ensure that the system works well is to dowel the flywheel/pressure plate joint.

Use of Loctite Blue, using shorter, 35mm, standard type bolts appears to be all VWMS did.

The joint between pressure plate and crank nose appears to be just as critical. The least you can do here is:

Make a 5mm thick underhead spacer, from the centre of an old pressure plate, and assemble using APR Ford Pinto bolts and Loctite Blue. Danny advocates lapping the p. p. to the crank nose, which will help a lot.



Just for my own information:

Can you take photos of the Sachs Sporting Clutch please?

Check if the three drive link plates between p. p. and cover are a single piece of steel, or three separate leaves, in each link?

 

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the info. I have already fitted the PP to the crank, it did not come with a spacer although there is one pictured in the manuals I have. If it's not too much trouble I will try and source a spacer and some new ARP bolts, I would like to make sure that the tranny is as strong as possible for my own piece of mind. I have some blue Loctite in the garage, what type do you recommend? Or are the blues ones all the same? I also have a red one but I think that is to permanently lock the threads!

Also, the lightened flywheel I got off Mart (hotgolf) has two locating dowels which are a nice tight fit, so that might help also?


Will take pics of the clutch on Monday and post them on here for you

 

Will, as you say:

Blue is basically Medium Strength for later dismantling. The 240 series.

Red is in the Med/High Strength and is semi-permanent. The 260 series.

Green is High Strength and permanent. The 270 series.

But, with a bit of heat approx. 300 deg C, both the Red and Green will soften enough to dismantle.

As I said. The plate is made from the centre of an old cover. The bolts should be easy to find on ebay at approx 19.99.

http://www.clubgti.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=1911999&postcount=78

 

http://cgi.ebay.ie/ARP-FLYWHEEL-BOL...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item45f9e57e85

Are these the ones you bought Dave?

Mart is making me a spacer plate, should have in sometime next week.

I will use the blue Loctite and get hold of some flywheel to pp bolts from VAG, along with the gearbox seals I need.

 

Will.

They are the ones that I bought. But, like I said, in the post, they are 28mm long and may bottom out, I have not been able to check yet. I'll check tomorrow, if that's OK?

As I also said, in the same post, that the 25mm long ones, 254-2801, would definitely be spot on. But they were more expensive!

 

Sorry Dave, not really paying attention.

The shorter ones '254-2801' are coming in at 41 at first glance! Let's hope that the longer ones are ok then

Will get clutch pics tomorow for you as promised.

 

Don't appologise Will.

There is a lot of information in that thread! And, cos. I wrote some of it, it can be a bit misleading at times.

I have not decided which way to go as yet.

The simplest is to mount the p. p. as normal with the 5mm thick spacer between the bolt heads and the inner face of the cover. This will be better because the bolts have more thickness to stretch and hence hold pre-load better.

The alternative is to weld the 5mm spacer to the back of the cover, making sure that the two bores are 100% aligned, and fit a 2.5mm spacer, from an auto box set-up, under the bolt heads. This gives a bit more length for pre-load stretch.

This is what VWMS did, using a 5.5mm spacer though, but it is probably only required for a solid, ie non cush spring, driven plate due to possible different offset of hub to friction face? Without the bits, I can't say for sure.

Xpower engines in Essex was where I got my bolts from. They were selling the 25mm bolts for 19.99, but don't list them at the moment. They are selling Schnorr washers at 2.60, and these might be just the job to stop bottoming and give more security in the joint.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SCHNORR-SERRA...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2a0e3121ce

I have used Schnorr a lot in the past with good results. But, there might be a clearance problem between bolt heads and the cush springs on the driven plate if they are used?

I'll have a good look at all these factors today and come back to you.

My problem is that I can't get hold of a Sachs Sporting clutch, for the 8v, at a good price. 16v are easy to find, at reasonable prices, but I would have to buy a separate driven plate. I have found a 16v VWMS box, which would solve the problem, but it is 3000!

Sincerely,

Dave.

 

Will.

One or two of us have had the tabs on the release plate crack. A spot of weld in the outside corner cutouts of each tab would help here.

http://www.clubgti.co.uk/forum/showpost.php?p=1899734&postcount=50

Also. VWMS welded the centre pip, from the back, to stop it falling out.

If you are welding, you will need to pre-heat and then slow cool.

 

Hi Dave,

Thank you for all the information, I look forward to your findings today. I want to make sure the transmission is as robust as possible before it goes into the car, and I am learning at the same time, which is always good!

The gearbox has a Quaife diff and uses closer 2nd, 3rd and 4th ratios with a long fifth gear. I do not know the exact ratios but I think it may go some way to reducing the strain, similarly to a lower final drive, if I have understood what I read previously on the forums.

Will

 

Can anyone confirm if this is the correct part no for the spring behind the output flange?

020 409 379 B

As I said before, when the output flanges are installed, I can push and pull them in and away from the gearbox slightly, will a new spring fix this? I plan to get a seal kit with new circlip from VW today. If the springs are easily changed, and readily available I will do them too.

Thanks

 

I am pretty sure when using the Quaife LSD that those large springs are not used.
Have a look in the output flange of the casing and check to see if there is room for them as they also need a seating washer too.
A quick call to Quaife may give you the answer on this topic.

There is a smaller curved washer that sits behind the locating circlip in the output flange though, this may take up the slack you mention.

 

Danny,

I think it is the smaller curved washer that is missing, there is just the clip and the flange, no sign of a washer. I know the one you are talking about though.

020 409 295

Will get a couple ordered from VW

 

Will.

The 28mm bolts are too long if your build thickness is less than 12.5mm.

I built up with my spacer and washers to 12.5mm. As the photo shows, a gap of just 0.3mm is left between the end of the bolt and the block face.



Turns out that 28mm bolts are actually more like 29.5mm anyway!

There is a gap, on my PB motor, of 1.80mm between the back face of the clutch mounting boss and the block. The mounting boss is 15.5mm thick. So, total is 17.3mm.

12.5 + 17.3 = 29.8

29.8 - 0.3 = 29.5

As ARP actually state 1.150" for these bolts, 29.5mm is closer to the design length. Obviously the numpty who worked out the metric equivalent used 24.5 x 1.150" = 28.175mm.

So, if your build thickness is 10mm, do not exceed a 25.4mm underhead measurement!

Forget the Schorr washers, for, in this instance, they defeat the object of stretching the bolts.

ps. A 5/8" AF Spanner is a closer fit on the heads than 16mm!

 

Hi Dave,

Thank you very much for the pics and info, my build would measure 10mm, 5mm for the pp and 5mm for the spacer.

Unfortunately, me being a bit of a newbie, my 210mm clutch has the wrong spline size for the output shaft on the gearbox! So I need to source a new clutch, and then re-check the measurements to make sure I get the correct bolts for the pp.

I think I will be looking at the shorter ARP bolts either way.

Anyway, pics as promised:





Cheers

 

The shorter 25mm bolts are coming in at approx 40 everywhere I have looked, can't really understand how there is such a difference in price between 25mm and 28mm?!

http://www.part-box.com/product_info.php?products_id=5585

These guys have them in stock so I might just bite the bullet to be honest, I want the car on the road! I will speak to GSF today and see if they can supply an 8v Sachs Sporting Clutch.

Couple more pics of the PP if it helps:





Also, is this where you referred to putting a spot of weld Dave?



Thanks

Will

 

Will.

Thanks for the extra photos.

What interests me is the bottom one, of the relase plate, it looks a bit different to standard?

The reason I asked about the three drive links was because I had read somewhere that the Sachs Performance clutches had 3 thin leaves not one thick leaf as yours obviously has!

This is the 8v Sachs Race Engineering Clutch - 883082999616. It is identical to the VWMS unit but with a Cast Iron, not aluminium, pressure plate. It is 350 to buy, as it was in 1987! This is probably the one with 3 thin leaves?



Why not buy the longer bolts and grind them down?

 

I wasn't sure if that would be ok Dave, I thought you would have mentioned it if it was! If you approve then I will do that, as 40 is bonkers really!

The release plate is just solid, there are no cutouts other than for the clip to fit into, in the pictures in the manuals I have there are voids of material missing either side as well. I don't know how or what effects this has, but i'm sure you do.

Will get some of the longer bolts ordered. What is the best way to grind them down? As in, how to make sure they are square? Wind a nut on and lock it in place and then grind up to it? Similarly as I would do it cutting threaded bar with a hacksaw.

Do you have a Sachs part no. for the uprated 8v clutch? I could not find one, only a supplier ref rather than manufacturer ref.

Thanks

 

The release plate is 'just solid' says he.

I have been trying to locate a good picture of the solid release plate for about a year.

Now you can post up a perfect picture!

Has it got a separate part number?

I did have all of the part numbers for the uprated 8v clutch. I will try to find them again right now. But. Don't hold your breath!

You could always just buy an 8v uprated driven plate! I'll try to find the separate part numbers. Then sell the uprated 16v d. p. on.

These bolts are very hard. Hacksawing and filing would be better, using a nut as a guide, but you will get arm ache and wear out a couple of hacksaw blades. Grinding very slowly, and carefully, so as not to overheat the bolt, would probably be less tiring.

ps. Do you actually have an M10 x 1 pitch nut?

 

Haha! I will bring it into work tomorrow and get some high res pictures for you, PM me your e-mail and I will send them over to you.

I like the idea of buying the seperate driven plate but where from and how quickly can I get it? I am very impatient.

Regarding the bolts, sounds like a bit of a mission, and referring to the point i made above about my impatience, I might just buy the shorter ones and be done with it

p.s. of course I do not have a m10x1.0 nut - could get one though from BBN, Bradford Bolt and Nut - they have EVERYTHING!