Hi, I've just picked up an Mk5 Jetta TDi that will be getting the full engine work for 300hp initially with more to come in the future with headwork etc! I need the handling to match but the upgrades I see on the scene rarely venture past coilovers and ARB upgrades. I'm sticking with the stock front ARB for now as I don't want a massive front ARB that most kit's use as these are prone to under-steer as it is. The largest front bar is 23.6x3.5mm and is found on lots of cars but a 25mm+ rear would be needed for neutral handling IMO. I do like the ride comfort and road holding that the standard car has even on ballon tyres so want to retain this the best I can as you all know our roads are not as good as we hope!! I'm fitting 18's with Rainsport tyres as i've had them on all of my cars and cant fault them at all. I'm thinking the Eos might have some braces and maybe the TT or Scirocco will have better ARB's etc?? I've read a Scirocco Front and Rear hub setups are an upgrade (like the TT stuff is for Mk4's) but Ive yet to confirm. I'm cant tell if the top spec models got better bushings like the Mk4 based stuff either. I know all models have the same Dog-Bone bush so I'm filling them in with PU compound as i dont want a solid or Poly mount as i'm running a diesel! Basically Id like to get the suspension/chassis together with the best factory parts and then base my upgrades around those with selected poly bushes where better rubber ones are not available. I've done all these sort of modifications to my mk2 (5 stud + more) suspension so want to do the same to this! I'd also like to get the info out there and I'll take some pictures of the installation for everyone to see! I've got some 345 front and 310mm rear brakes on their way so stopping wont be a problem. Thanks for the help! Ryan
You're a bit ahead of the curve, but I like the Qs you're asking as this will be big in the future when Mk5 GTIs start getting ripped to bits. It's thought that the Eos has Scirocco bits / vice-versa, wider than the Mk5. Beyond that, we've still really to find mix and match info on these, as they're still too new. Really want to get some more info on these on CGTI mind, in anticipation of the Mk5 rush which will undoubtedly happen. KWs & Gaz were used by ianb & altern8 on their Mk5s, respectively.
Chris, thanks for the response, as far as i can tell there are no documented swaps for these sort of upgrades. I've got a Scirocco rear axle to go and look at and I'll do some hunting in Etka! KW's are what i have in mind for the car, or maybe some H&R's, looking toward the higher end of the specrum really! I'll report back! Thanks Ryan
I'm just thinking out loud here so if it makes no sense I'm sorry! It looks like a 21.7mm rear ARB from a GTi as it's the largest i can see on Etka, unless someone else knows otherwise? E30 and Leon Cupra are no bigger. Eos/TT Roadster/A3 cabby rear subframe Unique and has 2 extra braces (#5) on the Eos only Standard Mk5 axle Eos Axle: The extra plate with the two threaded bosses is where the braces (#5 in the etka pic above) thread into. The other end of the brace goes to a hole where a bung would normally live on the mk5, I've yet to confirm if a Rivnut is required or not, My mate at VW is going to check next time an EOS is on the ramp. Only the A3 cabby has these braces too, they look to mount in the same place as the EOS braces above so i think we need to choose which one will fit best as the A3 looks to have an extra part for the mounting on other diagrams: I've also spotted a Lower rear turret brace on Eos only, number 19 here: I think this is a welded piece but I'll order one from the dealer and see next time the car is over the pit, it is about 80 so not a cheap upgrade! TT 'Cradle' from the engine bay, not sure what it does really but it is Unique to the TT and different on the Roadster A3 Cabby has a similar thing too: http://allegro.pl/audi-a3-cabrio-rama-pomocnicza-i1527178673.html It looks a little weak to be an upgrade?? I'm not sure if any of these retro-fit to the underside of any other car either. I cannot find any of the proper braces found on the early S3/TT's that everyone fitted to Mk4's which is a shame.
I can't see any differences in any front Top mounts between all models, BUT the rears on some models have part number: 3C0513353C It seems these only really come on the cars with heavy duty suspension; Passat, Tiguan etc. so i'd bet that they are an upgrade of some sort!
Cool, keep this coming. I like the Eos rear brace. If the turrets are in the same place this'll become a common mod. Subframe good too.
I've found out a US spec FWD R36 Passat with sports suspension (kinda specific!) has the largest ARB that will bolt right up to a FWD Mk5 Part #: 3C0511409B I've just bought one direct from the dealer, About 90 all in with new bushes Apparently the Passat guys upgrade with RS4 stuff, It's only 22mm (and solid, not tubular) so not much of an upgrade to the Passat item above so i wont be buying one. They look a similar shape but there is plenty of room in the rear of these so minor differences would not be an issue. http://www.ecstuning.com/ES11/ES2093805/ I've also found that a TT RS front wishbone rear bush is Solid, stiffer than the S3/Leon Cupra as this has 2 small holes, 8J0199231: The TT RS has the same part on both sides, every other bush is different and have a separate number for left and right. From some quick Googling the difference means better geometry but you have to re-drill the mounting to make it fit a Mk5 subframe. I'm looking into the feasability of pressing an older ibiza cupra/A2 solid bush into the Mk5 alloy carrier as a cheaper P 'n' P setup, those are only 15ea as opposed to 55 for the TT setup above. EDIT THIS WONT WORK, The Bushes are very different TT Alloy wishbones have a unique part number and are the same number for both sides indicating some angle changes. The Balljoints also have extra camber adjustment too. TT Hubs give 26mm wider track and have better geometry for lowered cars like the older ones, S3's and Passat have Alloy hubs too but the TT's are unique. It's been discussed to run the Balljoint above the wishbone instead of below (stock position) to lift the roll centre another 6mm or so! The TT has a different Steering rack that sits 7mm lower for a better track rod angle, coding this in to work properly might be an issue? I'm not sure if the rack sits any lower but it does have 2.8 turns lock to lock just like the older TT rack. The standard rack is 3.2 IIRC (checking ASAP). Coding in is not a problem Some of the bigger engines (R32, S3 etc) got different cast lower arms but the numbers also cross between the Caddy and others too so not only the 'fast' cars got those. The lowest spec cars had pressed steel arms just like normal Mk4's. Upgrading to these is just for weight saving.
FWD Tiguan and Passat's have different rear axles and trailing arms (3C0505223A) with different bushings too: http://www.bildelsbasen.se/?link=item&post_id=20885005 I think this is due to them being set up for 4wd even if they are front drive only as the 4motion subframe has the same part number, so this is not an upgrade. The hubs are the only part (other than the minor subframe differences discussed previously) that can be upgraded on the rear of lower spec cars, these alloy rear hubs are found on; Eos, Passat, Scirocco, Tiguan and Audi TT: Other than being lighter i dont know what the Geometry changes will be, I'd say they were wider too.
Removed the stock ARB yesterday: It's only 18mm, replaced it with the R36 one and it handles like a dream even on the standard shocks/springs and balloon Tyres! It's no go-cart but a definate worthwhile modification!! Picked these up too: Complete Front and rear subframes from a 2.0 TFSI Audi TT, they have seen little use so will be going on the car with the Fat RARB as soon as my coilovers land. I'm toying with the idea of swapping the 22.5mm front bar on this subframe to the smaller one from my jetta (19mm IIRC) but I know its better to have a Big one out back and a smaller one at the front. I have some 18 x 8.5's with 225/40/18 Uniroyal Rainsports ready to go on and my R32 345mm front and 310mm vented rear brakes should be here before the end of the week too! Some more pics: Alloy front hubs: Solid Wishbone bush (not RS only it seems!) Alloy rear hubs: The brakes from these (312 Fr and 286mm Rr) will go nicely on my Mk3 caddy when i actually buy one, lol! Thats enough for now anyway Ry
Finally some more updates!! It took a couple of days to do from start to finish including some snags along the way. I've just got back from having the alignment done at VW and I'm VERY impressed with the handling as well as the ride quality. As you can see it sits pretty wide, the Fat 5's are a wide wheel anyway (18x8.5 ET45) but I still needed to roll the arches quite a lot. We are using KW V1 Inox Coilovers and I'd say it was no harsher than my friends A3 S-Line!! I managed to measure the Rear axle Width's: Standard - 1587mm TT - 1617mm So the rear is 30mm overall wider, the front is supposed to be 27mm wider but I never measured as there are too many variables to get an accurate measurement but I’ll try!! I assembled both types of front hubs, Wishbones, Driveshafts and weighed them: Standard – 20.5kg TT – 17kg The 3.5kg saving, mainly in the hub, should make a lot of difference to handling. The TT sub frame is very different when compared side by side to the standard one; it looks thinner in places with different webbing and is 1 piece instead of 3 parts bolted together. I weighed both like for like (with no ARB's) and they were exactly the same. When I offered the TT sub frame up to the car the front 2 bolts were 10mm out so I swapped all of the parts back onto my old sub frame and used that instead. This also means the TT console/rear wishbone bush as a complete unit cannot be used; the alloy part won’t bolt up to the car squarely without any spacers/machining and also one of the holes re-drilling. At some point I'd like to swap the TT console back in as there may be some minor Geometry alteration as the arm will sit a couple of MM lower, For now I just pressed the TT bush into the standard Console. I've opted to use the standard 19mm front ARB instead of the 22.5mm TT item so the car should in theory be less prone to under steer when coupled with the larger rear ARB. The TT Track rods and Ends are different to the Standard items, The TT has alloy items: I’ve fitted the complete rack from the TT, I cannot see any physical difference but the car seems to have less turns lock to lock (2.8) Initially the steering assist did not work but after doing the adaptations and driving around for a while the lights disappeared and all seems well!! Anyway, Enough for today!!
BTW, I've set the Toe paralell front and rear. Camber is set 1.3degrees at the front and 1.55 at the rear. Castor was not measured or shown on the screen Anyone else have any input on what i should set it to???? I'll be going back for it tweeking again once the suspension has settled and I'm happy with the height. I might look at going to a proper suspension specialist to get the most out of the car if i can find anyone trustworthy enough to do the job?? Thanks Ry
I really like what your are doing Ryan. Good stuff! I do know one thing though. Apparently the front subframe is known to 'walk' with spirited driving as it is just an aluminum frame bolted up with big bolts. You can put some self locking washers in there to try to reduce it or even dowel it somehow? It's something I heard talking to Hugo. Gurds
Thanks, I'm glad I went this far instead of just springs and shocks, far more satisfying! Yeah its a 'common' problem aparently so I bought the serrated shims and updated bolts, they are on there now, just couldnt find the picture I took! They are a new sharan part going by the number. Ry
Good work Ryan, enjoying the mixing and matching going on here. I had no idea the Passat shared front end components! I have pulled out some of the ARB data you've given and updated this thread with what is effectively Mk5/6 information. Let me know if you see any inaccuracies or have more to add. Should I merge the MK5/6 info?
Dont forget the aftermarket WALK kit from Whiteline. Essential mod for the Mk5 platform. http://www.whiteline.com.au/articles/Effect of WL ALK_b.pdf Some interesting developments.
Ended up swapping the steering rack back to the standard Jetta item, for some reason the TT one was rumbling and groaning and seemed to have a mind of its own, I dont think the coding was a problem just a faulty rack. I think the difference is only .1 - .2 turns anyway as the standard rack has a little less than 3 full turns. The track rods DO fit onto the jetta rack but a concerning amount of thread is used, I think only 3 threads engaged so i put on a load of locktight and nipped them up with a massive spanner! I will consider the WALK kit, Spent enough already, lol! I'll see how it does on the track first.
