ABF race engine design - Help!

Discussion in '16-valve' started by Peter Jones, Jan 29, 2012.

  1. Peter Jones Forum Member

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    I'm trying to cobble together an engine for club level racing in my MK1.

    I have a good ABF core.
    Capacity has to remain under 2000cc
    Naturally aspirated
    High compression 13-13.5 or so (Fuel - Elf 104)


    Eurospec has a nice kit of parts to de-stroke and overbore (90mm x 84mm) which would seem to be ideal but they inform me that it's designed for the shorter (220mm) 9A blocks which I simply can't get in Australia, the ABF was hard enough to source.

    http://www.eurospecsport.com/products/new/index.htm

    Eurospec claim the kit is based on the FIA kit car spec which I would have thought would be ABF based. What is the FIA kit car spec and where do they get their internals from anyway?

    One option might be to source longer custom rods to make the eurospec kit work for me.

    I can't find any piston options that would get me that high a CR on a standard bore so de-stroking would seem to be the way to go.

    To complete the picture I'm also leaning towards -
    Badger 5 Jenvey DTH kit
    head work by CNC heads (I'm yet to discuss options with them.)
    dry sump kit


    Am I on the right track here?
    Again I'm in Australia and there's little to no local support or availability of parts to do this here, I'm relying entirely on the wisdom of the internets and technical encouragement from an automotive engineer friend of mine.
     
  2. mr hillclimber Club GTI Supporter and Sponsor

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    Hi Peter

    To make life easier I'd look at leaving the std stroke crank in place, and overboring a little to keep under 2ltr... 82.75 bore with the std 92.8 crank will gine 1996cc from memory.

    Pistons can be made in any size/confuguration to suit required cc & c.r

    The rest of the spec will be budget & regulation driven, though if yr allowed to run an ABF in a MK1 I'd imagine the rules are very flexible.
     
  3. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    The Eurospec kit is not an FIA kit at all, despite what they say. On the face of it, the dimensions are correct, but when you delve deeper into rod lengths and then implicitly crown heights, it's obviously an economic copy which is a blend of Seat Ibiza kitcar ADL shortblock (with 144mm rods rather than proper kitcar 149mm rods) - so same block height as KR/PL/9A/6A/ACE - and conveniently misses any distinction between what is on offer and the Golf FIA kitcar block, ie tallblock 160mm-rodded ABF.

    Then on top of that there's rumoured block skimming - and so it goes on.

    More details here:

    http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showthread.php?t=220777

    The proper parts can be sourced from Lehmann. 84mm Mahle pistons, ~ 500 each!
     
  4. Peter Jones Forum Member

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    Cheers Jason, that sounds like a good idea,

    any leads on who could make such a piston?

    Preferably someone who's familiar with the ABF motor?

    I'll be in touch with you regarding a custom water outlet for this motor too.

    I'm going to run an electric water pump and don't need the outlet for the bypass hose.

    Chris, the Lehman option sounds great although the price sounds like it might add up pretty quickly.

    I might send them an enquiry and see if they could estimate the cost of the internals.

    Freight to Australia can nearly double the price of parts so I have to tread cautiously.
     
  5. Jon Olds Forum Junkie

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    Electric water pump. Tried it/them, on numerous engines, and have reverted back to the OE one. If it aint broke, dont fix it.
     
  6. Peter Jones Forum Member

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    Interesting feedback, what were the issues you encountered?


    I'm planning on trying out the Davies Craig unit with the associated electronics. They're one of the few things that are manufactured locally.

    Mostly I'm interested in post run cool down and parasitic power savings.

    The adapter is from SCCH. I'll have to relocate the alternator.

    I was considering a total loss system and not running the alternator at all.

    At once stage I thought a drive shaft driven alternator might be the go but I've imported a heated windscreen so I think I'll need the juice at idle.

    SCCH link

    http://scch-heads.com/viewpart.php?id=41

    Davies Craig link

    http://www.daviescraig.com.au/Electric_Water_Pumps-EWP80___Digital_Controller_Combo___Part_No_8007-details.aspx

    Blurry mock up photos

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  7. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    Which engines did you get in Australia out if interest & in which cars?
     
  8. Jon Olds Forum Junkie

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    When they 1st came on the market they have a 10000hr life quoted. I had two replaced under warranty. Now the warranty is 1 year. Last one failed at 0530hrs in midwinter, at the start of a rally. Not fun fitting a new one in the dark, cold prior to scrutineering.
     
  9. mr hillclimber Club GTI Supporter and Sponsor

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    No probs at all Peter.

    Pistons can be made by any of the compitant manufactures...I have a couple of sources for example, but others are available.

    Yeah thats easy enough to sort.

    Chris is on the money re the kit car stuff...dont be drawn in by attractive claims.

    "That" we'll all look forward to seeing!....I'm sure the price of the internal from Lehman will leave you chuckling for a while!

    You can achieve all you want Peter without selling a limb...there are some great parts out there, you just need the right bits...it does'nt need to come from a works engine builder to be good...in fact a lot of what they use are from the same suppliers as the best after market stuff, but with a 200% premium on top because you have their "name" on the invoice.
     
  10. Peter Jones Forum Member

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    Not a lot really.

    We skipped a generation because VW pulled out of Australia for about the duration of the MK2.

    MK1

    1600 petrol and 1500 diesel motors.

    We had Cabbys too they had anemic GX 1800s on KE-Jet.

    MK2

    Very, very few private imports of the early stuff.
    We got a few of the late MK2, badged as GTI but with low spec RV 8V motors.
    I know of a couple of 16V MK2s but there would be only about 5 or so in Aus.

    MK3 came out here as CL, GL or VR6.

    CL was 1800 8V ADZ motor. (Great conversion for MK1)
    GL was a 2.0 8V 2E or ADY
    VR6 AAA(?)

    MK4 onwards is pretty much the same as you guys.

    We did get SEATs for a few years though.

    Cordobas were the same spec as the MK3 CL 1800 ADZ
    Ibizas had the small block 1600 unless it was a GTI and got the 2.0 2E
    Cupras and Toledos came with the ABF, hard to find, probably less than 30 in country.

    My ABF is out of a Toledo, I had to buy the entire car to get one.

    Pretty slim pickings really. My current race motor is a 2E bottom end with an 1800 solid lifter head and twin 40mm DHLAs.

    020 short ratio boxes are stupidly rare here as are the 02A boxes.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2012
  11. mr hillclimber Club GTI Supporter and Sponsor

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    Bracket look good Peter. Jon has a point re the pumps though...the original failure rates were fairly high, though I've been told the latest ones are alot better. I've been looking at a similar kit with an O.E pump which is obviously designed for high miles in a production car...just need to get our head around the wiring at the mo to see if it's viable...it was hard work getting the diagram!

    In many way's, would you miss a handfull of hp when you may have a sub 240+ in a lightweight MK1?...though I do agree it all adds up.
     
  12. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    The ADZ block is dimensionally a KR (1.8 16v)/PL(1.8 16v)/6A (2.0 16v)/9A (2.0 16v)/ACE (2.0 16v).

    It would accomodate a OEM 2.0l crank. Coupled with the ABF head, that gives you a KR at standard capacity, or can be bored to create 6A/9A/ACE.

    Lehmann prices will be staggering. Money talked for complete units is of the order or EUR25,000.
     
  13. mr hillclimber Club GTI Supporter and Sponsor

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    8v....good call!

    How much power do you "really" need?
     
  14. Peter Jones Forum Member

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    Yeah that's what it's all about for me, I make what I can and do most of the work myself. There's not too many things I won't tackle.

    I'm in the midst of painting the car at the moment. I'm never going to do a 4 colour paint scheme again! I've lost count of the number of rolls of masking tape.

    I could get crank reground and rods manufactured locally with a bit of effort but I'm looking first to see what's out in the ABF marketplace off the shelf.

    In any case I'm hoping the CGTI brains trust can help with specifying exactly the components this will require, I think we're getting closer already.

    There's no local knowledge at all of these motors here and I have no way of accessing the "off net" word of mouth information from the overseas motor industry.

    I'll start by digging up the specifications of a stock piston and asking around a few manufacturers for a quote on some slightly bigger ones.
     
  15. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    Peter,
    Before replacing or investing in internal hardware components to improve the engine output on a future engine, my method for such a challenge would be:
    Firstly, asking and and establishing, what benefits do you perceive would be gained by switching to a multivalve engine variant over your 2E "Race" engine. This may mean pulling up engine torque and power plots and comparing with telemetrey or another data relating to the vehicle when racing. This will highlight where you need to be faster based on powertrain.
    Then you would have to find a method where by you can map your requirements/improvements to a targeted engine torque for a given engine speed range. By "map" I mean transpose your thoughts to some type of power/torque curve that is improved over your baseline in the area that makes you faster on track.
    This would lead to what components/engine config would be influential in the improvements.

    A custom 84x90mm bore by stroke + the rest, has fundamentally different engine characteristics to a 83.75x92.8mm even though mathematically they do result in 1996cc of swept volume.
    The above questions and suggested brainstorm could determine if you require one configuration or the other.
    The off the self pistons for these ABF engines are sold in "20thou" steps hence the easy availabilty of 83, 83.5 and 84mm units.
    Custom piston are available from the various piston manufacturers designed to suit your piston pin size and rod lengths.

    Additionally it may be determined that the above are excess to requirements leading to a 'conventional' blue printed build i.e. an ABF engine with an overbore to 83mm + matching CR, cams/extractor plus the ITB kit and a well sorted calibration.


    HTH.
    Toyotecwerke.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2012
  16. MelG60 Paid Member Paid Member

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  17. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    To suit 144mm rods or 152/3mm rods, as per the real deal? !!

    Anyway, 85mm bores seem to leave folk jittery, 3mm walls!
     
  18. mr hillclimber Club GTI Supporter and Sponsor

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    Nice to see they do a piston if you feel yr std R8 is lacking urge! :lol:
     
  19. mr hillclimber Club GTI Supporter and Sponsor

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    85mm is thiiiiiiiiiin in the walls.

    I've got an ABF here which maybe coming apart...(dont tell Danny I've bought a 16v engine...he may not see this![:D])...I'll get it to my machinist to eye it up for suitable maximum over bores....to power difference will never be that great tho to warrent potential issues.
     
  20. mr hillclimber Club GTI Supporter and Sponsor

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    Look forward to seeing the pics then Peter!

    Stock pistons are flat, you'll need a raised crown type to get the c.r up where you want it.

    Dont grind the crank unless you really have to...better still, find a better crank...and loose the internal trigger wheel no matter what you do, or it'll find it's own way out through the block at some point.
     

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