Not sure which gearbox route to go down in MK2 ABF...

Hi everyone, I've got an ABF in my MK2 with a 4T gearbox on (came on the original 1.6), but 2nd and 3rd are too long. I'm thinking a sportier ratio set could make it feel quicker so I want to change gearbox. I'm at a point where I keep going round in circles on deciding if I'm going to go for another 020 from a MK2 GTI or an 02A from a Corrado or Passat. If anyone has any pointers or input it'd be greatly appreciated.

My ABF is running on standard MK3 digi management, but has a tubular exhaust manifold on, rev limit is at 6750RPM as far as I can tell. I could be going for more power in the future from the ABF, but for the moment this is my daily car, so I'd unlikely to go for anything too extreme that could affect reliability. It's unlikely to end up being a mad turbo thing, more likely to be cams and a chip tune... I don't drive like a lunatic either, I have some mechanical sympathy, so no intentional smoking burnouts, and flying starts aren't part of my routine lol

Here's my thoughts right now:

02A
If I go for an 02A, I'd be looking for an AYK. I've also been offered a CBA G60 gearbox with flywheel and cable shift for a really good price by someone I know. I'd prefer to go with cable clutch too because I don't fancy cutting at the car body if I can avoid it. I've also noticed the CES and CGY look to be the same ratios as the AYK?

Advantages of 02A:
-Stronger clutch
-Stronger gearbox
-Newer (so likely less miles/wear?)

Disadvantages of 02A:
-Heavier flywheel and clutch (can get flywheel lightened though to approx 6kg?)
-Gearbox is approx 10kg heavier than 020
-More work and parts to buy than if I was to stay with 020

Thoughts on the AYK ratios for my ABF:
-1st doesn't look as good as a MK2 golf 020 (easier to wheelspin?)
-2nd and 3rd look good, similar to a MK2 golf GTI gearbox
-4th and 5th look ok, taller than MK2 GTI so better economy for cruising. I doubt I'd be driving hard in those gears because that'd be 80+mph.

Thoughts on the CBA ratios for my ABF:
-1st doesn't look as good as a MK2 golf 020, similar to AYK (easier to wheelspin?)
-2nd looks good, similar to the AYK or MK2 GTi gearbox
-3rd and 4th look ok, about half way between my 4T and a AYK or MK2 GTI gearbox
-5th looks like a really good cruiser gear and is very similar to my 4T, which would suit me well for normal cruising fuel economy and comfort.

Parts Needed:
-Gearbox
-Cable shifter
-Flywheel + lightening
-Clutch
-Cable clutch actuator (hard to get? phoned TPS this morning and was told it's obselete)
-Ibiza Gearbox brace with cable retainer (got one)
-Clutch Cable
-Starter motor (got one)
-100mm driveshafts (or just change the inner joints)

020
If I stick with 020 I'd be looking for either the 2Y off the MK2 16V or the 4Y,9A,or ACD from a MK2 8V. I know the 16v has a larger input shaft than the 8v, has anyone noticed a strength difference from experience between the two from using them on an ABF?

Advantages of 020:
-Gearbox is lighter than the 02A, so not adding weight to the car
-Flywheel and clutch are lighter than 02A by quite a bit
-Simple swap, no changes to the rest of the car for shifter or clutch

Disadvantages of 020:
-Gearbox is not as strong as 02A (does anyone know the safe limit?)
-Clutch is not as strong as MK3 VR6 one (my Sachs 8v GTI one that's been on since summer 2014 slips a bit from time to time, though I suspect oil contamination because I foolishly didn't change the seals on the crankshaft or gearbox input shaft)
-Older, so without a rebuild many could be getting a bit crunchy on fast shifts?

Thoughts on the GTI 020 ratios for my ABF
-1st is the same, which is fine and will help avoid wheelspin a bit.
-2nd and 3rd look good, like AYK
-4th and 5th look good for acceleration, though not quite as good as AYK or CBA for cruising fuel economy. 5th limits the car to about 135mph (not that I'd be going there on the roads)

Parts Needed:
-Gearbox
-100mm driveshafts (or just change the inner joints)
-16V clutch for 2Y, or new clutch if mine is actually contaminated.

I had just about convinced myself to go 02A for the higher ultimate strength at the expense of weight, but because the cable clutch actuator might be tricky to get and it's a bit more work to do the swap I'm wandering back to 020 again for the simplicity of the change. Does anyone have any suggestions based on their experience?

Cheers

 

The main thing is the gearbox.

A MK2 ABF car on running a digi 3 with a custom remap is a very strong pulling beast.
Cams should only come later along with the rest of stuff.

For starters concentrate on the gearbox.

Either fit an original 02A CDA/DPA MK3 16v gearbox or an 8v or 16v 020 (ACD, AUG or 2Y) gearbox.

The 02A is larger and can take more abuse and the flywheel is heavier. These are NOT an issue on a road car.
Hotgolf on here can lighten an 02A/J/S/C flywheel no issue.
02A/J gearboxes are older and will need some sort of inspection. You can wake up engine response with a change in Final drive from 3.68 to 3.94. If you start running the car on a track, then 4.23 from a CZM gearbox is preferred. At that time you may have to extend the engine torque/ rev range to match.
You will need modifications for clutch and shifter, speedo sensing to run an 02A/J/S gearbox

020 are good little gearboxes but will need a rebuild to remain durable. The 4T code 020, is an economy box an not suited to the torque profile of the 16v engine or the 'GTIness' of a MK2 Golf.
Ideally you need a GTI type gearbox that has fairly close spacing, keeping the engine in the 'sweet' spot.
Once again, FDRs are critcal depending on what you are doing with the car. Standard ones are 3.67, then 3.89 as in the Scirocco and then the rare 4.25 FDR. I run the latter - Buzzy!
My flywheel is also very light as spec'd by hotgolf as is the special stainless linkages.
Long term the plan is the fit an 02S with specific gear spacing and FDR.

 

Thanks for the replies.

Might go with a 020 ACD gearbox then to make the swap simple and to keep it light (not that the extra weight of a 02A and flywheel would be that noticable to me, but I like the thought lol ).

2nd and 3rd are my biggest problem with the current 4T gearbox because they're too long. I also got offered a MK3 CDA too but 2nd and 3rd are about the same as the 4T, while 4th and 5th are closer, could be an option with a better final drive if I get it rebuilt.

Cheers, I feel like I'm closer to a decision lol

 

I have done the same a long time ago on a mk2 16v of mine. Must have fitted an ATH code and was shocked. Eventually fitted a GTI gearbox and response returned. Did not know better at the time though.

 

I have never heard of the larger 24mm 16V input shaft making the difference in strength over the smaller 22mm 8V shafts, nobody ever twists the 8V shaft or strips out the splines for the clutch, so it really isn't needed.

There are a couple other reasons I think the 16V trans isn't as good as the 8V... internally, they're both equally weak and strong. They share the same diff rivets which is a common cause of failure, and both will have 5th burn up if the oil is low, so one isn't any stronger than the other.

The hassles with the 16V comes with buying parts, they're a few bucks more for some of them than the 8V codes, and there are other internal changes that don't help, they just limit your options for gearing, compared to the 8V.

The output shaft in a 16V has splines for 4th gear that are 2mm larger OD than the 8V shaft. This means the 4th gear has a larger ID, and this means you're limited to only 4th ratios that fit a 16V shaft, the 1.129 or the 0.969. With an 8V trans you get those same 16V ratios, plus 4 others found in the other 8V codes.

5th is the same way... the 16V output shaft uses a deeper groove than the circlip groove on the 8V shaft. The 8V circlip fits loosely on the 16V shaft. The 16V shaft uses a special retainer clip that engages in a groove on the top of the small 5th gear. This means you are limited on available ratios that come with a groove on the top of the gear. You can also modify a regular 8V gear by drilling a dimple in the top to let the special clip engage. So you can use all the 5th ratios, but you need to modify the gear with a dimple to make the 8V gears work on the 16V shafts.

With the limits and hassles in the choices of 4th and 5th gears, combined with the lack of strength and slightly increased parts costs, I don't see an advantage to the 16V codes, personally.

Much of it comes down to how it is driven... hard shifts, clutch drops, etc. can kill one with a stock Golf engine. If you roll onto the power smoothly, avoid shocking loads to the gears, and fit it with a bolt kit to secure the ring gear, they can be quite reliable with higher output engines. I've heard of folks pushing 300 and running an 020.
Of course, the bearings and gears and so on will be subject to a lot more torque and input forces, so the lifespan will be reduced and it'll wear out sooner, but it won't fail.
You can take small steps to avoid this, things like having the bearings and parts cryo treated to increase wear resistance and strength, use quality bearings, work clean, etc. but if you double the input power to the trans you can't expect it to last as long as it would when coupled to a weaker lump.

It could be, but experimentation with oil can help change the friction generated by the sync ring on the gear face, and the more friction they can make, the faster they can match shaft speeds and the faster you can shift without grinding.
If the ring is simply worn out the oil can help, but there is no replacing missing brass.

A rebuild might not be a bad idea anyway, it would allow you to fit a bolt kit to the ring gear at least, if you have the budget a LSD can replace the diff and remove one of the other fail points in the 020, the spider gears themselves. Plus, you get LSD traction which is superior to the stock open diff.
Anyway, opening it up for a rebuild would allow you to pull it apart, inspect everything, refresh it, bolt kit the ring gear, get the bearing preloads in spec, and while it is apart you can alter the gear ratios at that time by sourcing good used hard parts from other codes, and build the box with the ratios you want.
You could do it to the current box you have now, really.

A close ratio 8V set with the 2.12 2nd gear and a close ratio 3rd set would do the trick to transform your current box. You already know the history of this 020, as you own it... so for an input shaft set (the input shaft, and matched 1st and 2nd gears from the output shaft, all kept together from the original trans they were taken from), and a 3rd gear matched set (used gears shouldn't be mixed), you could have the ratios you want. There is the 1.37 and for even shorter a 1.44 for 3rd ratio, compared to your 1.28 now.

Another option... as mentioned by Toyotec, which actually might be a better idea, is to just swap out your current 3.67 R&P (FDR) with a 3.89, 3.94, 4.25 (if you can find them, they're rare here, used only in 90 and 91 Jetta Diesels).
It will change how every gear feels, so plug the numbers into the calculator link I'll post below and see what you think.

For a shameless plug, I also have new aftermarket 4.13 ratio 8V R&P sets. Cryo treated, made by a factory in China that supplies Shanghai VW, which is the name VAG operates under in China. I get 0.76 5th sets from them, the 4.13 R&P sets, reverse idler gears, and the 1st/2nd sync hubs that reverse mates to from them, and the quality is good, they're the same parts going into the factory 020 trans being used in the Chinese market vehicles today.
I've had a sample sent out to be rockwell hardness tested, to compare against the specs the factory gave me, and they're accurate. I've sold quite a few of the reverse idlers and 0.76 5th kits, and haven't had any complaints.
They're the only aftermarket parts I stock, everything else like the new rebuild parts (bearings, seals, gaskets, syncs, etc.) are mostly OE VW, some OEM. The Shanghai VW parts I stock get cryo treated after I get them like my bearings and other rebuild parts (sync rings, thrust washer, keys, springs, pushrods, etc.), cryo increases wear resistance without affecting hardness, and it is also argued that it increases the strength. There is no argument about the increase in wear resistance, tests have shown up to a 300% increase in taper bearing life, which is why I started treating my bearings... all the trans I opened showed excessive wear on that small output shaft taper bearing, and I started looking into ways to increase the life of them.
I'm in the US but will ship to the UK.

You could sort the rebuild, inspect everything, refresh it all, and with that you get the peace of mind that it is prepped for years of use. You also get to change the ratios while it is open, whatever method you choose, and can improve the reliability with a ring gear bolt kit at least.

Here is a graph for gear ratios you can use to compare the various available ratios to what you have now, you know the motor better than anyone else and where and when it makes power, as well as how you shift and drive, so the chart is handy to help make a decision on the ratios for the build.
It's for Honda trans, but you can plug in VW numbers and get the same results... http://www.zealautowerks.com/transcalc.php

I have 020 gear ratios listed on my site Ratios Page here http://www.brokevw.com/020ratios.html

I also have Teardown and Rebuild pages on my site http://www.BrokeVW.com that can help in rebuilding the trans, and if you have any questions about the procedure you can email me, my address is on the site.

Sorry for the long rambling post, I'm on great meds from surgery yesterday to have a failed SS plate and broken screws extracted from my collarbone lol

Brian
(first post since 2012!)

 

Great write up, lots of useful stuff in there, thanks
Jon

 

4.25 you can find in 02K

 

I had a Mk2 16V box in my Mk1 ABF and didn't enjoy it at all, I thought it was too short.

I drove a Mk3 16V for a while and thought the standard box was perfect for the ABF.

 

ABF CDA with 3.68 FDR, too long for me.
KR 020 2Y with 3.67 FDR ok.
Hotgolf built 2Y with 8v 5th (0.89) and a 4.25 FDR. Just right for a brisk track car.
It is rev happy on motorway cruises (or blats), but I could not care less. Use the car everyday when I can.
Way faster than any 'stage 2' MK2 1.8T I might add!

 

Great write up by Brian. Exactly what I would have said myself.
I've not heard of anyone twisting input shafts on normally aspirated cars plus the 8v parts are more interchangeable due to the pinion shaft diameter (PITA)

A rebuilt 020 is a nice box. You won't need to change any hardware and it's nice and light. Couple the right ratio box to a light flywheel and it makes for an exhilarating drive.
Yes, final drives over here are easy to get hold of(ish) 4,25 are 200 off ebay, of you can find them in 02K's as well as 4.46's
All parts are available although if you have an early box I'd recommend the later 3rd/4th gear hub with the radiused key slots and keys with the longer flats to prevent them popping out.

I went from a 3.9 020 to a 3.9 02a quiafe 6spd dog box and thought it killed the feel, mianly due to the flywheel being 2kg heavier and also the vague cable change feel. Even with PB bushes, and a tower change they don't feel that direct, something that can be sorted but adds up.

I'm hoping to have a facilities for 'super finishing' of gear components in the next month or 2 which is another way to increase gear life and reduce transmission losses. I've only used Cryo treatments once and I was unimpressed with the results from the place that did it. Maybe I'll try someone else and give it another go.(main shaft journal surface was starting to peel!)

Anyway, plenty of food for thought.

 

Interesting... I'm aware of the updated design hubs with the rounded key slots, but I'm unaware of the change in keys, do you happen to have a part number for the new style keys?
I've been stocking the old standard keys, the 014.311.313 keys, if VW has a different key out for the 3rd/4th hub, ideally something to prevent the over-shift issue with 3rd, I'd be keen to learn about it and get some in stock!

I've had nothing but good luck with cryo treatment on my end... it is a dry fog system, the older processors would spray liquid coolant direct onto the parts in a mist, which made regulation more difficult. New systems are a dry fog and it regulates temps more evenly.
Speaking with a metallurgist a few weeks ago, the tempering phase after cryo is crucial to the treatment, to prevent brittleness in the parts after the deep-freeze phase of the treatment.

Perhaps the peeling surface of the input shaft was a result of the surface hardness not being tempered back down?
I've actually had no peeling or other issues with cryo, other than it is a decent drive for me to get the parts to the processor on Friday evening and then again to pick them up on Sunday afternoon once they are cool enough to handle.
I took in the drills I use to remove the rivets in the 020, a 6mm and 12mm drill, and had those treated... I noticed I got longer times between sharpenings after having them treated.

The super finishing you speak of, is this a coating on the parts to reduce wear, or a micro-finish of the surface without any additional coating or deposit on the surface?
I have heard of coatings applied to parts via various methods to increase life, but wasn't able to find a local facility to handle it for me.
If I recall correctly, along with less wear between the parts it offered claims of more power from a drop in parasitic loss due to friction between the parts in contact.

I really only started cryo because of the small output shaft taper bearing, it always showed more wear than the others so I started looking into ways to combat that without trying to increase the bearing size or arrangement. Tests done on taper bearings show a great increase in life, so once I started doing the bearings, I started dragging more and more parts in because it gets cheaper per pound of weight when you bring more in!

A 4.46 is not available in anything we had here... I wish our junkyards here had trans with 4.46 R&P sets in them, they would make for a fun trans in the right application.
The 4.25 is pretty rare here, I've had only 2 pass through the shop... I rebuilt one for a customer, and bought the other for my own trans if I ever get back into a running VW again, I'll have a 4.25 set to build myself a nice trans with.
I was happy to find new 4.13 sets from Shanghai VW, but good used stock 4.46 sets would be even better, and probably cheaper!

Anyway, it was good chatting, let me know if you have the part numbers on the longer sync keys, and I'll have a look online to see if I can spot a change in ETKA on them as well.

Brian

 

Personally I run an 8v GTI box in my ABF mk1, its the box that was originally in the car. I only put it in because I didn't have any 02A gearbox mounts and intended to fit the Mk3 16v 02A once funds allowed.

That was 5 years, 20,000 miles and many track days ago... I can't find fault with the 8v GTI 020 and its never let me down.

My only problem is tripping over the 02A thats been sitting around my workshop for the last five years!

 

Broke,
keys are: 084311313
Hub:020311301D
The hub sleeve has to match the keys as the recess for the keys are longer inside.

I too wondered if they'd been cryo'd too long or had inadequate tempering phase. I've seen large metal rollers crack that are used for rolling steel in the hot metal rolling process and what I had looked like delamination. Pretty poor!
The Superfinishing will be a micro polish using a vibratory polisher with a 'though' cooling system using porcelain media. No coatings just increased surface finish and component enhancement. It'll produce a low friction surface that will reduce rolling resistance and hence contact stresses in the long run. Transmission losses will be reduced and should produce more bhp at the wheels.

Nice to have contacts in Shanghai too Brian, closed I got was buying on Alibaba but the production numbers were so high I'd need another mortgage!

 

Wow, I got way more than I expected there, great info guys, thanks. Looks like I'll be going 020, I'll see how the MK2 8V box with 2.118 2nd suits me.

 

Outstanding, I appreciate the info and will look into getting those parts with my next order from VW.
I also have some 3rd/4th hubs from Shanghai, I will examine those as well, maybe they're using the updated design there. I know the hubs have rounded slots, but I'll check the sleeves and keys that they shipped with.
Thanks again!

Very interesting, I use a system that sounds a lot like that to clean the trans parts.
I used to clean everything by hand in a manual parts washer sink on top of a drum of kerosene, and it sucked.

I bought a big ultrasonic cleaner, hoping I could split a trans open and drop the parts inside... but it didn't work out like I wanted. The ultrasonic cleaner is good for cleaning things already clean... it makes them pristine. It would take gears I cleaned by hand and REALLY clean them after that.
It worked on such a microscopic level that any thick grime or film was taking forever to clean. It was just not what I had in mind when I bought it. I sold it for a massive profit, but I regret selling it as I used it for other stuff but I had to sell it to fund the next attempt at finding a cleaning method.

I next bought a 3 cubic foot Mr Deburr DB300 vibratory finisher tank... it holds a few hundred pounds of media (ceramic, plastic, shell, whatever) and the tank vibrates, which causes the media to cascade and rotate the parts over. It has a spray bar at the top of the tank to rinse the media as it runs. I run kerosene in it, and ceramic M (medium grit) compound in it... I have some media in the shape of an angle cut cylinder, and some in the shape of a 22* angle cut triangle.

It worked so well, I ended up buying a bigger unit, 6.5 cubic foot DB600 machine, and it is big enough to fit the bellhousing in and allow it to rotate with the media so now I can clean everything, including the cases, in the vibratory tumbler.

I would love to try very small media in it, something like the grain size of sand, to let it get into everything and clean. The only downside I've found is that if that ceramic media can fit into a hole, it will. It'll vibrate and get multiple pieces of media into a threaded hole, and it never comes out. As a result, many of the parts need prepped to plan for the media getting stuck and wedged in every available space in the parts.

Most of it I can remove and pop out with a small pointed pick,but some of the stuff needs prepped. Every threaded hole gets a bolt installed, any smooth holes, like the hollow input shaft, gets a piece of wire or rope or something fed into it prior to cleaning, where it stays until I pull the parts out of the machine again. The media will still get into the space between the input shaft and wire or rope, but then I can pull the wire out and leave a lot of empty space, which 'unlocks' the media pieces trapped inside and they fall out.

It is extremely labor-saving though... toss everything in, turn the kerosene pump on, start the tank up and walk away. Come back in 30 minutes and everything has been scrubbed over every square inch many times over. It beats the hell out of doing it by hand with a stiff parts brush!

The media isn't cheap, 50 pounds is about $150, and since the big machine holds about 300 pounds that is almost a grand to change media.
The media I have is small enough to clean everything pretty well, but not small enough to get into some places, like between the splines in the gears, or in between the individual sync teeth, etc.

Let me know what size and shape media you end up using, and how it works out. I still have the 3 cubic foot model, I've been trying to sell it but I could maybe use it to turn it into a super-finishing tank if I know what media can be used. All of the internal parts fit this tank, just the casing was too big for it.

Here is a video of the machine I have, but my media is larger, and is rinsed with kerosene as it runs:
[video=youtube;1YuIMVnE23s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YuIMVnE23s[/video]

This is the media I use:


It is great to get rid of the black film in some trans (before and after):



Oh, for small parts, to keep them from getting lost, I made a ball out of a couple of colanders and fill it with media and small parts, bolt it together to form a sphere then let it tumble inside the machine:


Brian