1983 Golf MK1 1.8 DX GTI - Bosch Distributor Springs...

Discussion in '8-valve' started by Zender Z20, Dec 16, 2022.

  1. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    Think I've possibly made a boo-boo.

    The cars original Bosch distributor is -

    Bosch - 0237 024 007

    VW - 026 905 205 H

    Took it all apart yesterday (and glad I did as the centrifugual arms were very sticky from gummed up / solidified grease).

    Anyhow, everything went fine until reassembly when both the springs decided to make a bid for freedom.

    Had been taking reference photos as I went along but sods law means the info. I need isn't clear to see in any of them.

    If I've understood correctly the 2 x springs aren't the same. One (with a longer loop at one end) is the 'hard' spring and the other with equal sized loops the 'soft' spring.

    I'm confident everything is back where it's meant to be with the possible exception of the orientation of those springs.

    Does it matter which arm / peg they hook onto as doing it either way is possible, though not necessarily correct.

    The centrifugal arms have coloured plastic ends, one red the other white... maybe for that very reason?

    One arm also has an additional weight, again may specifically need one or other of the springs.

    I had written then deleted a whole ream of stuff trying to explain better, but just got myself and likely also someone reading it later more and more confused.

    I'm hoping someone (looking at you RJ!) will already have the knowledge to understand / help sort my problem and I can instead answer questions / post photos as needed to allow them to do that?



    1.jpg

    3.jpg

    4.jpg

    5.jpg
     
  2. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    wish I could help, but the only distributors I've stripped are 16v ones. non of this weights and vacuum gubbins to worry about there :lol:

    I assume if you could source any old mk1/2 carby dizzy that would be close enough to show you which way the springs go. or maybe try ringing round various bosch specialists one of them might be kind enough to help you out
     
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  3. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    Cheers... initially thought (hoped) it didn't matter, but the more I look at it this particular version with the added weight and read stuff on-line it probably does.

    Had previously thought about getting a spare, looks like that's decided for me now so it can be used as a reference as well!

    Good shout ringing some of the specialists, I'm sure they'd be happy to help.

    What was holding me back getting another was confirming part numbers.

    Mines -

    VW 026 905 205 H
    Bosch 0237 024 007

    Typically sods law means it looks like those exact numbers are hard to find.

    Crazy Quiff quotes the following as all suitable -

    Distributor - late 1.8 with electonic ignition - DX Engine code

      • 055905205H
      • 026905206A
      • 026905205AK
      • 026905205AA
      • 026905205H

    Assuming they are just earlier / later issues of mine and identical?

    I'm guessing it's a combination of the hall sender / vacuum pot / centrifugal arm + weights specs. that differentiates one dizzy from another by influencing the ignition curve / matching it to the engine spec?
     
  4. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    055905205H - cant find anything on this one in ETKA, google only shows it on crazyquiff's site and 1 post on MK1 owners club. assume a really old one long since NLA

    026905205H - DX >> 110000 / EV >> 025000
    026905206A - DX 110001 >> DX119000 / EV 025001 >>
    026905205AA - DX 119001 >> 130000 / EV 86-87
    026905205AK - DX 130001 >> / EV 86-87

    AA superceeded by AK, so either is compatible with each other
     
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  5. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    Cheers ... I've a pre 110000 chassis number DX so that confirms 026905205H (the one I have) is correct to the car, thanks.

    Just to clarify, those that come after it, for example 026905206A (for chassis numbers 110001 to 119000) and those other later ones are to the same spec. / ignition curve as mine and direct replacements?

    VW numbering throws me some times, not sure if why they re-number stuff even it's the same as before or because it's spec. has maybe evolved / changed?

    Specificall thinking ignition curves etc.
     
  6. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    going bu the ETKA data all the DX distributors have the same spec, so I dont really know for why the different numbers. it may be the number is for the 'complete' unit, at some point during production the rotor arm was changed from a rev limiter type to solid so it could be down to that or possibly bosch made some revisions to the distributor design or something, or both :lol:
    Clipboard01.jpg
     
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  7. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    That's exactly the sort of info. I need, thanks for hunting it out.

    Is there some way of confirming if 026 905 205 H also has those same centrifugal specs. as all the others on that table?

    The pre /post - July/ Aug. '84 difference in specs. for the vacuum advance units may account for some of the revised part numbers?

    My heads pickled Googling for the past few hours but did notice some of the earlier distributors have an oval shaped hall sender connection whereas mines rectangular, again maybe something as simple as that resulted in a new part number even the specs. were unchanged, just guessing?

    If H's centrifugal advance specs. do tally with all the others and push comes to shove if I can't find aother I could always swap over the vacuum advance unit from the existing dizzy to any new one to match everything up.

    Wonder what impact those changed vacuum advance specs. would have on running, were they maybe introduced because of emission changes for example?

    A difference of 60 mmHg here or there means nothing to me I'm afraid, it could be small or massive for all I know!
     
  8. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    H is the only one not covered unfortunately, it shows the earlier 1.6 GTI one but not the H unfortunately for cars this early Elsa is a bit patchy although the MK1 data is much more complete than the mk2 and corrado

    you're right the vacuum unit must be for why the difference between the earlier and late for some reason I completely blanked that info :lol: so I can tell you the vacuum unit is the same for the 205A and H dizzy, the weights are not available separate but I'd assume that'll be the same also...
     
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  9. Jon Olds Forum Junkie

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    Got a big box of dizzies here, at least 20....
    Jon
     
  10. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    I'm sort of working with one hand behind my back as I've only access to 7Zap.

    Having said that it's been pretty good to me up to now, specially with the MK2... yes there's been the odd curly one info. wise, but on the whole I've got through using it.

    This time I'm completely foxed which is why I'd prefer to get like for like and another original 026905205 H so that there's no guessing whether or not it's completely compatible.

    If you've a decent, unmolested one I'd be genuinely interested if you're wanting to part with it.

    Rang Crazy Q's today as they may have a refurbished one, but the sod's closed until the new year... you'd think it was a holiday or something!

    Autodocs database is quite often useful, they seem to be linked into some of the big name manufacturers own Tecdoc pages.

    My vacuum advance unit is pictured below, has the number 2415 on the arm that's normally (and very usefully) hidden inside the dizzy, apparently there's no other way to identify which one you have.

    When you run the Bosch dizzy number (0 237 024 007) for 026 905 205 H it gives you a break down of it's separate parts ie. cap / rotor / sensor and vacuum.

    Bosch's part number for the vacuum unit is 1 237 122 415

    Unless that's a massive coincidence at least there's one thing that's certain (I hope).


    Vac Adv Unit 2415.jpg
     
  11. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    Going to resurrect this one...

    Rang two 'specialist' companies in England... won't name them, but found their responses really lacking / not helpful and was left with the strong impression I was wasting their time unless prepared to buy a new dizzy.

    Bit of a short sighted way to treat potential future customers, but seems to be the way of things nowadays.

    Anyhow, leaves me much where I was before - needing to know which spring goes on which weighted arm.

    I've also been looking out for a spare identical dizzy and while there's a few about in Germany and further afield so far no one wants to post to the UK (at any price).

    Have identified some alternate Bosch numbers that either run the same vac. cannister or the same Hall Sender (but unfortunately not both together).

    Trouble is info's very limited out there, if I could get the exact spec's for mine (026905205H) I'd be in with a better chance of maybe even building a replacement / finding a closer match that an present.
     
  12. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    How does a Hall Senders particular specification influence a distributor?

    They are presumably given unique part numbers for a reason, so you fit the correct / compatible one to a given distributor?

    Is it similar to the influence a vacuum canister has, so say if you fitted the incorrect one it would change the ignition curve?

    This is a follow on from what RJ posted above... I'm trying to identify which (if any) of the subsequent dizzies to mine might be suitable.
     
  13. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    @rubjonny

    Feel like I'm making a bit of headway because the info. you've given above thanks and by cross referencing it with sites that link into TecAlliance.

    It's still very patchy though and getting complicated, most need the Bosch number so it's all getting disjointed trying to match up to VW's own.

    Anyhow, big ask... if you have it could you put up the same sort of chart you did on the 21st Dec. but instead showing the centrifugal and vacuum advance comparisons for the 1.6 GTI?

    I've identified a few dizzies that share the hall sender with mine but not the vac. cannister and vice versa.

    Changing the hall sender looks to be a much bigger faff than the cannister so would prefer to get one with things that way about.

    Knowing the 1.6 GTI's advance details'll maybe confirm the same weights run through from its to mine and on up to 026 905 205 AK.

    Looking like some of the changes in dizzy numbers are down to moving from the oval hall sender connection to rectangular and also the rev. limiting rotor arm to solid. Others though are because the vac. advances are different, it's a real mix-up.

    I can't get my head around how some of the outfits selling the re-manufactured dizzies are claiming they cover so many different OE numbers, the difference in their specs. can be quite large. They'd maybe run OK in different applications, but surely you'd be changing running characteristics?

    On another note - the rev. limiting rotor arm.

    Am I right in saying it was replaced by a relay in later cars?

    Can you choose to run one or the other with no effect, I ask because it's possible my dizzy originally had the rev. limiting one from the factory however I know it now has the solid arm / relay setup?
     
  14. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    The hall sensor itself afaik is the same spec, the difference in part number is just due to fitment into the various distributors. the trigger wheel is what's important, this is matched to the engine/ignition system as well as the vacuum and weights advance stuff if required.

    for example you would think the MK2F polo 1.3 SPI and GT would be the same as they only need a basic distributor with no weights or vacuum units, and the ecu handles all the timing stuff. but no, the trigger wheels are different and you'll loose performance putting an SPI dizzy on a GT. also there were a couple guys who bought cheap KR distributors form ebay and found they ran worse than the original units, again I assume this was due to the trigger wheel because what else could it be? but no good pics were posted at the time to compare

    Here are the 2 EG distributor charts (049 is points ignition for completeness) interestingly the electronic ignition chart has a typo, 607 instead of 067
    049905205E.jpg 607905205.jpg

    EG distributor 067905205, uses hall sensor 035998065, and vacuum unit 067905271A (no part number for weights)
    DX 026905205A uses hall sensor 035998065 and vacuum unit 026905271B, DX 026905205H is the same vac unit but uses hall sensor 034998065 (different plug housing)

    you're right, anyone listing a distributor to fit multiple models isn't going to be correct for them all, most likely they're carb spec and if you fit to a GTI you'll loose some performance but without getting one to compare its hard to say. could be they'll be crap for all UK models as designed for some obscure euro market engine we never even got :lol:

    with the rev limiter yes its either in the arm or relay, you can pick which you want or neither (or both :lol:) depending on your preference they distributor will work the same just the rev limiter is either spark cut or fuel cut. presumably the change was for cost/streamlining reasons but who knows

    some info here, shame the pics are gone:
    https://clubgti.com/forums/index.php?threads/rev-limiter-on-an-8v-scirocco-kjet.188590/page-3
     
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  15. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    Perfect, thanks for doing this.

    Interesting that the innards of hall senders are potentially the same. When you say trigger wheel you mean that 4 x slotted cap?

    Presumably the size of the gap is the influencer that differentiates one from another?

    If you could re-use your existing trigger wheel then the sender innards from (within reason) any old dizzy of the same type might do?

    I'm maybe wrongly linking the centrifugal advance specs. to the weights, I'm thinking if one dizzy has the same figures as another it implies they have the same weights?

    It's the lack of info. on specs. that's tripping me up... if I knew them for certain for each potential alternative it'd probably be quite easy getting a very close match or also even building your own up from the correct parts.

    Harping back to the thread discussing NOS stuff... not quite the same thing, but my preference is to get a genuine Bosch dizzy, even it is old and then refurb it rather than go for a re-manufactured latter day one.

    I believe the rev limiting rotor that should be on my car is 026 905 225 / 1 234 332 348 which is set to 6700 rpm

    Some ones obviously gone with changing that for a solid rotor / rev limiting relay on mine as its got an aftermarket K.A.E 3.300.210 relay that's limited to 7500 rpm.

    Found this - http://www.cabby-info.com/Files/Relays_Kjetronic.pdf

    Haven't fully read / understood that 2009 thread but might've been useful to them back then!

    Maybe go back to the proper rotor, apart from 7500 rpm seeming too high, the rev limiting relays are a bit pricey at £45 plus.

    7Zap's possibly wrong on what the non-limiting fuel pump relay part number is, getting conflicting info. when Googling.

    Guessing (hoping) it'll be cheaper than the rev. limiting one, my K.A.E is the 210 so not a dodgy wiring one (according to Caddy-info) but is looking a little crusty and may need replacing.
     
  16. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    yes exactly that, the size/position of these cutouts on the trigger wheels can differ from dizzy to dizzy. assuming the distributor is mostly the same design you can swap these, they pull off the shaft once the circlip is removed but this is tricky to do without damage. probably easier to drive out the split pin then remove gear, pull the whole shaft out the top

    I'd also assume the same re: weights but I dont know enough to say for sure one way or another. there are wizards out there who can fine tune the weights to suit your engine, but probably not many of them left now!

    some data I put together for k-jet fuel relays:
    relay number - VW part number - kraker/kae number - GSF number
    na = 321906059C / KAE 3.300.100 / 6.2k limiter (ceramic fusebox)
    2 = 443906059A/321906059D/E / KAE 3.300.200 & 3.300.210 = no limiter (superceeded by 321906059F)
    3 = 443906059 = no limiter (superceeded by 321906059E/F)
    62 = 443907385B/321906059G / 24.1400.30 / KAE 3.300.220 / ? = 6.5k limiter
    63 = 321906059F / 24.1400.20 / KAE 3.300.210 / 935VG0090 = no limiter (or I guess, 7200 is as good as no limiter for a normal 8v :lol:)
    65 = 321906059H / 24.1400.40 / KAE 3.300.230 = 6.3k limiter
    264 = 443907385G = 6.3k limiter (superceeded by 321906059H)
    265 = 443907385H = 6.3k limiter (superceeded by 321906059H)
     
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  17. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    Brilliant, something to work with finding the proper non-limiting relay, cheers.

    It's not much as it's limited to my car / year but I've some useful info. gathered up while doing all this that'll maybe help identify alternative replacement dizzies / hall sender / rotor / cap and vac. cannisters if someone's ever in the same boat. Will put it up in time.

    Thanks again.
     
  18. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    Going back to the trigger wheel, the first image below is stamped on the MK1's and the second on the MK2's.

    They don't tie in with the 3 digit numbers you see on Bosch items that date the parts, I'm thinking if the wheel is what mainly defines one Hall sender over another these numbers could identify which is which?

    Potentially be useful if you're having to assemble one up from parts or even better, if you really knew what you were doing, tune them in the same way different springs can alter the advance curves?

    dizzy mk1.jpg

    dizzy mk2.jpg
     
  19. Zender Z20

    Zender Z20 Paid Member Paid Member

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    Can't imagine anyone was in the same position I found myself, needing to know which spring went where, but just incase there is / was or will be in the future...

    By good luck it's as in the images of the original post, I suppose I'd a 50/50 chance of guessing correctly and for once it worked!

    So the soft spring with the equal sized loops is on the side of the red arm and the hard spring with the unequal sized loops the side with the white arm.

    If @rubjonny you're in the mood to do one last search and post up the centrifrugal spec. chart for dizzy 026 905 206 it'll confirm or deny something I'm trying to get my head around.

    Could maybe then be able to post up some useful findings afterwards, cheers
     
  20. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    unfortunately that one isnt covered, I can only get older MK1 era distributor timing data from ElsaWin :(
     
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