4 cyl big block oil pumps - how many versions? FAQ added p2. Updated p4.

on a tangent briefly - is it possible to swap the 8v pump drive shaft for the splined one from an abf? and what fits onto those splines to drive it?

 

Neglecting the issue of wear, yes providing it is a 36mm pump. The splines go into a gear that is specific ( and expensive) to 2.0 16v engines. This gear connects to the intermediate shaft and is centered by a 2.0 specific blanking cap.

 

Interesting - when I put mine back in, the gear was wobbling about near the intermediate shaft and took a bit of cajoling to get it into place, so the oil pump spline could re-engage.

Is the blanking cap the distributor hole cover? What's special about it?

 

so the gear centres on the distributor blanking plate, and slips onto the oil pump shaft splines. just wondering cos when i fit megajolt i'll be wanting to lose the dizzy and blank off the hole. how expensive do you think?

 

The 140.17 splined gear, 053115027A, has to center in this "Locking Cover".






This locking cover 051103703C, the splined gear and IM shaft, are only found on 2.0 16v engines VW and Audi.
As you know the hole in EA827 2.0 blocks, where a dizzy is placed for 8v, is larger than the 1.8 blocks.

 

Ah, didn't knoow. That'll be why the gear on mine was flapping about.

KR block, ABF pump. So the expensive locating part won't fit because the block aperture is different.

So sounds like I missed checking whether the splines were the same on the KR and ABF pump driveshafts. They've got a different length on the splines, but that's all I spotted?

What's the sum total of parts needed for putting an ABF pump into KR?

- intermediate shaft
- cog
- pump

 

iv got a genuine g60 and a 9a pump in the barn so ill whip them apart tomo and stick some pics and measurements up if there wanted, also will have a 2e if i ever get my passat back, feeling abit too rough atm to think properly.

 

The blank or Locking Cover is not the expensive part!
Its the cog or splined gear that costs 140quid from the stealers. Compare this to a KR unit that "only" costs 58.30.

Total cost from VAG is
Gear 053115027A 140.17 for ABF,9A,ACE and ACE
IM 053115017C 218.10 for all 2.0 16v.
Oil Pump 051115105A 167.64 ABF and 9A
Oil Pump 051115105C 328.01 ACE and 6A ooooohhh!!

At these prices it's time to head to the scrappy and get yourself a bargin. ABF engine!!

 

Wow, large conversion cost to this one.

I must try to jam in the ABF pump into a spare KR I've got knocking around... Will report back. They just looked identical.

 

Chris,you have a PM regarding this thread

 

1Z pump on its way

Cheers Tommy.

 

Ill measure up and photo an aeb pump Ive here too.
Edit, its exactly the same in every way to the ABF Chris, If you do still want Pics just shout.

 

Ok, Ive often wanted to talk about this cap and other stuff but dident want to start a thread about it incase people thought I was insane
Up until this I knew about a few things but dident have any photos or all the parts to back everything up, but, a while with the angle grinder solved all that!
But, now, after seeing the above post, and the others, im going to let rip!!

Lets start off with the differences between the 1.8 and the 2.0 intermediate shafts and drive gears.

Below are the two shafts and oil pump gears, on the left is the 2.0l and on the right is the 1.8l setup.


As we all know, if a 2.0l crank is fitted to the 1.8l block you will run into clearance issues.
You can get around this by, cutting notches at the base of the bores for the rods to clear, AND, by narrowing the intermediate shaft gear so that the big end section of the rod clears it.
The gears in question are called helical gears and operate in the crossed configuration.
By narrowing the gear you increase the thrust pressure on the gear tooth face.
This may not be a major issue on a project or track car but for mass production this is not acceptable.
So in order to keep the mesh area as it was in the 1.8 they had to re-design for the 2.0l.
The result was of course making the intermediate gear smaller in diameter to get around the clearance issues, and therefore, in turn, making the oil pump shaft gear larger in diameter in order to keep with the same shaft(s) bearing and running positions.

Although the driver and driven gears of both the 1.8 and the 2.0 blocks vary in size ratio both sets of gears carry 17 teeth each, and even if the diameter differs rpm is kept the same through both gear sets by altering the helix angle of the driven gear with respect to the driver gear.
The 2.0l intermediate shaft gear is 34.36mm in diameter and the oil pump shaft gear 41.60mm in diameter, just incase you want to check which ones you have.
That way, even though they altered gear diameters of both engines the final oil pump speed stays the same in both cases.
As a matter of interest, the crank pulley has 26 teeth, and the intermediate sprocket 43, so for every one turn of the crank, the oil pump does .604 of a revolution, or at 6000rpm the pump is doing 3624rpm.

Now, lets talk about the integrated oiling system and the locking cap held down by the 'c' clamp and 13mm bolt, I'll be using my 058 2.0l 16v ''research'' block to demonstrate.
The cap or plug is an extremely Important part of the engine and is often over looked when low oil pressure issues occur.

Below is the oil pump shaft, notice the oil hole in the side, and the oil way drilling exiting out the top.


Now over to the block, notice the path the oil takes from pump, a drilling is taken from the line up to the filter to feed the oil pump shaft upper bush, and in turn feeds the hole in the pump shaft too, once per revolution via the drilling in the bush.
Important to note that this is unfiltered oil


Shaft installed, and highlighted for ease of oil flow reference.


And with gear installed, notice bore bases notched for longer throw, and the smaller gear in order to provide clearance, even at that they have bevelled one side of the helical gear.


And a view from the top, showing increased size cap hole(44mm, with a 52.5mm counterbore 3.5mm deep). Its easy to now see why they needed to go for a bigger gear here in order to ''reach'' the now smaller than before intermediate shaft gear. Boring out this hole and fitting a larger gear was far easier than say keeping the smaller hole, cap, and pump gear, but moving in the oil pump and shaft bushings and would have really made it awkward, required a full high tolerance re-jig and would have changed everything.
(oil pump shaft removed for clarity)


Ok, Im nearly at the point now that I wanted to bring up originally, nearly done saying ''shaft'' ''pump'' and ''gear'' bare with me

Below is the shaft assembly, on the left is the cap, then gear, shaft, and pump rotor.
When the complete unit is installed the cap does NOTHING for gear alignment. It offers thrust force only.
It keeps the splined pump gear down in place using the engines own oil pressure.
Granted, due to the way the helix gears are handed the rotation of the intermediate shaft and the natural rotational torque resistance of the oil pump draws the oil pump gear down onto its bearing surface on the block, but additional holding is required to avoid any chatter that may possibly occur under some conditions.


A close up of the cap's thrust face shows a small hole leading into the main body.
You will also notice two ''v''s or depressions on the thrust face too, these provide a film of oil between the cap and gear, oil flowing up the oil pump shaft flows out these small low areas and lubricates the said face and the run off makes its way onto the gears, clever eh?!


And a view from the side, you can now see three parts, main body, pin, and the plunger.
The plunger has a milled slot in it, the plunger is inserted into body and the pin driven home, the plunger is now captive but able to slide in and out approx 10mm.
The fit is pretty good between both, steel on steel, no seal, pretty airtight when oiled.


And in the extended position.


Its important to remember that there is NO spring behind plunger and the plunger has to make a seal on the thrust face of drive gear by using its own weight only.
Once the engine is started, oil flows up through the shaft, past gear, and into cap body pressurising the chamber and forcing down the plunger against thrust face, and in turn, keeping the gear nice and firm against the block thrust face.
This is the very same principal in the 1.8's but in a smaller diameter, and cast aluminium(lighter plunger ) as opposed to the 2.0l cap which is turned steel.

You can see in the picture below of it in its operating position and sitting nicely down on gear face.
(notice light brown ring where the plunger had been resting higher up for some time by the looks of it, see pic below)


Now, Im finally at where I wanted to be at the start, Should this cap get blocked, be it the hole into it, or the plunger get tight in the main body, keep in mind its getting unfiltered oil all its life, then you may have problems.
Either the plunger will be forced up by the oil exiting shaft, or should you turn engine backward for whatever reason, even a tiny bit(I know you shouldent ever but It can happen)you will lift the pump gear off its seat due to the nature of the helix gears, and in turn push up an already gummed up plunger.
The cap I have here(the one above) was gummed up solid with crud and i had to give it a soak to get it working again. Should an engine have been turned backwards a touch, or the pump changed and the cap plunger/compressed slightly at time of refitting, Im am certain that its own weight would not have reseated it in order to make an oil tight seal, and of course for the chamber to pressurise.
This would result in pressurised oil exiting between gear and plunger and would drop your over-all oil pressure dramatically, and in turn would be extremely hard to trace down to such a non-assuming ''simple'' little part.
You can see here on one photo I took first before I freed it out, the cap sitting approx 2.5mm away from gear face.


Had this engine been turned backwards before I got it, maybe, its easy to do it when setting up timing, you pass the mark, you turn it back a few teeth to bring it forward onto the mark again, or maybe you turn the intermediate shaft backwards with the belt off, once is enough for the helix gear to climb and push the plunger up.

What I do know is, that before I pulled the engine from the 2.0l 16v Audi 80, the head was very loud, I put It down to engine wear and dident care as it was just to tie me over as I was between cars.
But on tearing down the engine, the shells were fine, the oil pump spent a while in my aeb A6 and was fine, and the tappets I also used on the 20v head(exhaust side) and the other 8 when into some other yoke, there wasent a sound out of them.

Ill be checking the cap and plunger anymore

Sorry for the ridiculously long post but It was the shortest way I could explain everything I wanted to.

Brian.

@Chris, yes, you can indeed use an Abf in your kr, youll have more pumped volume which could be a good thing for you, you said splines where the same? Go for it.
And ps, I have to hand it to you for bringing up the best talking points ever, if you want this inter shaft, cap and gear for your wagon just shout, ill gladly send them over to ya FOC, Im done with them and wont be needing them.

 

Brian thanks for clarifying the operation of the "locking cover". And the pictures do tell a thousand words.
Bring an interesting thought on where oil pressure can be lost in these engines and why.
The steel locking cover for older 16v engines pre 92 has been superseded by the ally unit that I demonstrated on my post (for an ABF engine). So all ABF, ACE and 20v motors will have an ally unit.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read it all Toyotec, I noticed in the AEB(1.8t 1.8l) That it had the alloy cap too, I noticed also that it was of the same operation, what I mean by that is, relying on gravity to keep the plunger down, Do you know if the ABF type units hve an internal spring or are they of the same design?
I really dont know why they dident put a spring in there on the units Ive seen.

Thanks again,

Brian.

 

that made for a very interesting read.
could anything similar happen within the 8v distributor, or is it not as critical a part?

 

No, your pretty safe there.

 

cracking read - sat having a cuppa and toast - learn't something today - cheers to all for putting the effort into this post

it might be of interest to add: my engine is dry sumped so doesn't have any of the oil pumps listed above but uses a 'cap' with a big (AN dash 12) hose fitting welded into it as a block breather

wonder why the abf pump shaft is waisted?

great thread once again

 

Ive applied everything to do with clearance and every engineering practice under the sun that Im aware of and I simply dont know why the shaft is waisted...?
Glad ya enjoyed your toast Rob, ha ha ha!!
Can wait to see Chris's next update, I think he has 1 or 2 more pumps to dissect should be interesting.

edit, just rang the bro in china there, the purpose of waisting on any shaft is to distribute torsional impact forces along its entire length. This allows the waist portion to better absorb the impact force and disrupt torsional impact frequencies.

Now, THATS WHY!

So, going on that it think they must have felt the need given the fact the helix angle is larger on the shaft gear than that of the 1.8 shaft gear, but I may be wrong.

 

Top work Brian! So much so that in a half awake state, I'm still muddling over how this cap works.

It's a concertina creation that sits low on gravity alone? Is there any chance it's being pumped up on hydraulic pressure too?

(To me the design seems plainly ridiculous!)

If pushed up on an engine reverse turn, it may not return?

It sounds like a quick removal of the 'c' clamp and 13mm bolt, to inspect the plunger for free movement wouldn't go amiss...