Audi A4 BTCC / STW engine specs - 305 bhp from an N/A valver.

Discussion in '16-valve' started by A.N. Other, Mar 23, 2009.

  1. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    Your 6A head is actually the same unit found on your ABF motor.
    051103373D suggests it is so.
     
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  2. Brian.G

    Brian.G Forum Member

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    so where does that leave us? ace? machining around exhaust flanges looks very similar?
     
  3. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    Pictures of the headwork are ultimately needed really.

    The engine needs to flow a lot more air on the inlets than we've seen in tests done by Neal H and mr hillclimber / that listed on CNC's site.

    Current headline figures are:

    mr hillclimber: 129.3 cfm (Modified ABF inlet + ported Dbilas DCOE manifold)
    Edit: mr hillclimber: 136 cfm (Modified ABF inlet, minus manifold)
    CNC: 142 cfm

    As far as I understand it, based on a ballpark ratio of 0.43 bhp per cfm, it suggests this needs to become 177 cfm to yield 306 bhp.... - and that could be with an inlet manifold[:s]
     
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  4. RobT

    RobT Forum Junkie

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    just been reading a mint edition of classic ford where a chap had a clubman spec Hart BDG made

    For 12K

    90mm bore (imagine the valve sizes!), 77.6mm stroke
    all steel
    dry sump
    twin 48 DCOE carbs

    240hp 179ftlb

    now I know that this engine will do 280/300hp when pushed a bit more.

    I seriously doubt 300hp from a 85mm bore.........just cannot see how it was done
     
  5. Brian.G

    Brian.G Forum Member

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    compression ratio perhaps? and maybe different/more squish zones? would allow a slide in the flow figures needed and maybe they made power that way?
     
  6. Neal H Forum Member

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    Perhaps eveyones figures were exaggerated?!?
     
  7. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    Scepticism, come on! I'm surprised you head flow guys aren't all over this one!
     
  8. mr hillclimber Club GTI Supporter and Sponsor

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    Working flat out... 16hr days, but give me a couple of days!:lol:

    For one thing though, C.R would be brave... 13-14:1, and the cams would be radical, not so much duration (though would be long) but VERY snappy opening.

    From memory, big power Vauxhall's that make over 300hp flow around 160-165 cfm, so yr not far off Chris. I'll find out and get back to ya.
     
  9. Neal H Forum Member

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    The best (genuine) XE results I have seen, as in the most CFM, have been with a 35 mm inlet valve and have done circa 155 cfm fully dressed so to speak. This produced 287 bhp in tarmac rally spec. I have not seen any details of anything "better". That does not mean it hasn't been done, I just haven't seen anything from anyone reputable for it...

    If anyone has any info, post some details please, I am sure they will make some interesting reading...
     
  10. infinity

    infinity Forum Member

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    Rob, are you making that assumption based on what you've read with the hart engine article?

    what we need to do is look at the high spec valvers we know about, RobT's, Terrys i'm sure theres more, and compare spec's.

    VW obtained a claimed 260-280hp from an 84 mm bore from parts which are obtainable.

    Audi took it too another to another level with its bespoke parts, higher comp, 85mm, large valves surely thats got to be worth a couple of hp.

    i'm a believer til I see some facts and figures:thumbup:



    I've seen an STW nissan produce 329hp on a rolling road, an hour later a mk2 20vT produced 265hp on the same dyno (225 TT lump) those figures add up to me [:D]
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2009
  11. Neal H Forum Member

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    Those Nissans were rumoured to be putting out big power, so yes, that sounds in the same ballpark as the rumours.
     
  12. 3hirty8ight Forum Member

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    SBD are getting 300bhp plus out of duratecs and XE motors..
     
  13. mr hillclimber Club GTI Supporter and Sponsor

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    We're on the money Neal. 159-160 cfm on a genuine 2ltr XE giving 280+hp for tarmac rally use. The same head spec feed's a 2.4 at 300+hp.

    I think we'd be lucky to see 145-150cfm on a big valve KR of ABF, which would'nt be too shabby I spose.

    I plan to try a quick port job on a VW head with big inlets some time soon so will see what sort of ball park can be had.
     
  14. Neal H Forum Member

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    SBD are quoting 292 bhp for their XE's. Impressive, but this will still be one expensive piece of kit. Steel crank, rods, pistons, big valve inserts, etc, etc. Then again, 145 bhp / L is not going to be cheap N/A...
     
  15. RobT

    RobT Forum Junkie

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    304/195 for the 2.0 duratec!

    staggering
     
  16. mr hillclimber Club GTI Supporter and Sponsor

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    Around 12-14k is the going rate for that king of power, bit more for the bigger 2.4's. Cheap compaired to a Millington at mid 20K's.
     
  17. Brian.G

    Brian.G Forum Member

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    can we have guesses if nothing else as to where this power is coming from? cr has to be a big factor tied with a very good map? i dont care(within reason)how good a head flows this hp level is just serious for a 2.0[:^(]
    i came across these pictures and i chose to share them as there just so damn hard to get info on let alone pictures, there not vw but they do belong in high hp engines and there probably the most beautiful pictures of metal there is.
    the f1 collection
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Again high port angle, big valves and tiny crank throw with respect to bore diameter, about 70mm from memory of reading the f1 cosworth specs
    [​IMG]
    enjoy!
    I hope that in someway it adds to the quest in making hp...
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2009
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  18. prof Forum Addict

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    duratec Bore is 87.5 mm (3.44 in) and stroke is 83.1 mm (3.27 in). on the 2.0

    The Duratec 25, or Duratec 2.5L I-4, is an evolution of the Duratec 23. 'Duratec 25' should not be confused with the similarly named 2.5L V6 Ford Duratec. The new Duratec 25 is an inline 4-cylinder engine design that is identical to the Mazda MZR 2.5L. The bore and stroke have increased to 89 mm x 100mm and as such now displaces 2488 cc | 151ci. Power has been increased to 171hp@6000 rpm and 171lb-ft@4500 rpm torque. A Hybrid Duratec 25 will be replacing the Hybrid Duratec 23.

    so i guess the 89mm pistons will go in the 2.0 too...



    the old dfv ran 90 V8 - 2993c.c. - 58.8mm stroke – 90.0mm bore

    The DFV had three major upgrades over its life in the top formula, with the development of first the DFY and then the DFZ, followed by a major redesign to produce the final DFR type.

    DFY
    With the introduction of turbocharged engines towards the end of the 1970s, Cosworth's naturally-aspirated DFV began to lose its predominance. In an attempt to recover some of the performance deficit Cosworth designer Mario Illien
    Mario Illien

    Mario Illien is an engineer specialising in motorsport engine design and comes from Chur in the Graub?nden, Switzerland. Despite living in a country in which motor racing was banned in 1955 , he developed an interest in the sport during the 1960s while following the career of Jo Bonnier, a Swedish expatriate living in Switzerland....
    reconfigured the cylinder aspect ratio to allow the engine to rev more freely, and combined this with a narrow-angle valve set-up. The changes upped power output to ~520 bhp, but this was not sufficient to keep pace with the turbo cars at most tracks, and it was only through a modicum of luck that Michele Alboreto
    Michele Alboreto

    Michele Alboreto was an Italy racing driver. He is famous for finishing runner up to Alain Prost in the 1985 Formula One season, as well as winning the 1997 24 Hours of Le Mans and 2001 12 Hours of Sebring sports car races....
    was able to take what would prove to be the DFV-family's final F1 victory, at the 1983 Detroit Grand Prix. The DFY lived on with back-marker teams until the end of the season, when Cosworth switched their efforts to supporting the new turbocharged Ford GBA V6.

    DFZ
    The announcement at end of the season that turbocharged cars would be banned from , and the introduction of the Jim Clark Cup and Colin Chapman Trophy championships for naturally-aspirated cars for , prompted Cosworth to revive their elderly engine design. This resulted in the DFZ, essentially an updated version of the final DFY design. However, the capacity increase for the new 3.5L naturally-aspirated formula running alongside the 1.5L turbos in 1987 allowed Cosworth to increase the power output of the unit to ~560 bhp. The engine was intended as a temporary measure to tide smaller teams over into the new, non-turbo era from 1988 onwards. Tyrrell
    Tyrrell Racing

    The Tyrrell Racing Organisation was an auto racing team and Formula One constructor founded by Ken Tyrrell and started racing in 1958, but started building its own cars in 1970....
    , AGS
    Automobiles Gonfaronnaises Sportives

    Automobiles Gonfaronnaises Sportives was a small France racecar constructor, who competed in various racing categories over a period of 30 years, including Formula One from to ....
    , March, Lola and Coloni
    Enzo Coloni Racing Car Systems

    Enzo Coloni Racing Car Systems, commonly referred to simply as Coloni, is an Italy motor racing team and former Formula One racing car constructor....
    chassis were all powered by Cosworth in 1987. Jonathan Palmer
    Jonathan Palmer

    Medical Doctor Jonathan Charles Palmer is an entrepreneur and former racing driver from England. Educated at Brighton College, he won the 1981 British Formula Three Championship and the 1983 Formula Two championship....
    of Tyrrell eventually won the drivers' Jim Clark Cup, and his team took the constructors' laurels in the Colin Chapman Trophy. The engine remained in service with minor teams until the end of the 1988 season, when general release of the DFR engine made it obsolete.

    DFR
    From 1987 Benetton
    Benetton Formula

    Benetton Formula Ltd., commonly referred to simply as Benetton, was a Formula One constructor that participated from 1986 to 2001. The team was owned by the Benetton family who run a worldwide chain of clothing stores of the Benetton Group....
    had been operating as the works Ford team. With the abandonment of turbocharging it was clear that the venerable DFV/Y/Z design was nowhere near being competitive with far newer offerings from Renault
    Renault Sport

    Renault Sport Technologies is the France motorsport division of Renault. Renault Sport was responsible for Renault's sports car racing entries during the 1970s, including their win at the 1978 24 Hours of Le Mans race with the Renault Alpine A442....
    and Honda. To counter this, drastic changes were made for the DFR of 1988. Although superficially a DFV-design, almost the only feature carried over from previous versions into the DFR was the basic 90 V8 engine architecture. The DFR became available to all customers in 1989, with the Benetton team also using this engine until the 1989 French Grand Prix
    1989 French Grand Prix

    The 1989 French Grand Prix was a Formula One race held at Paul Ricard Circuit on July 9, 1989. The race is most famous for the multiple collision involving Nigel Mansell, Maur?cio Gugelmin and other cars on the first lap, which resulted in a restart....
    . The DFR struggled on until the 1991 season finally being eclipsed by the higher revving abilities of new pneumatic valve gear
    Pneumatic valve gear

    Pneumatic valve springs are metal bellows filled with compressed air occupying roughly the same space of metal Spring s used to close poppet valves in high-speed internal combustion engines....
    engines such as the HB, and was last used in that year's Australian Grand Prix by the Footwork, Fondmetal, Larrousse and Coloni teams, nearly a quarter of a century after the DFV's first race. By the time of its demise, continued improvement had pushed the DFR power output to nearly , 60% higher than the original 1967 DFV.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2009
  19. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    We'd better take account of fuel spec I suppose - race fuel complying with MSA 100RON maximum is used, but gives more power than pump fuel at the same RON level.
     
  20. CA121 Forum Member

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    1.3 lancia delta from the 80's has a 86.4mm bore and a 55.5mm stroke

    i used to race one. very rev happy.
     

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