Electric water pumps

Discussion in 'Engines' started by HPR, Nov 2, 2013.

  1. Tristan

    Tristan Paid Member Paid Member

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    Vw did it for efficiency in relation to smooth running and emissions. Richard is spot on, maximum effort engines usually run reverse flow, taking the cold(er) coolant out of bottom of the rad and into the head.
     
  2. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    It was for durability.
     
  3. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    What are you trying to achieve?
     
  4. EZ_Pete

    EZ_Pete Forum Junkie

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    I put one on my first mk2, as a coolant mover supplied with a Kenlowe pre-heater system. It just plumbed into the heater matrix return hose, and was fed by a 12V supply. Still got it I think, I'll look it out tomorrow. Very small/low power so possibly not grunty enough for your purposes though.

    I had a go at finding out how the VR6 setup is plumbed by looking at the ETKA parts diagram, but found it completely indecipherable.
     
  5. Nige

    Nige Paid Member Paid Member

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    I struggled to follow it too lol
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
  6. Nige

    Nige Paid Member Paid Member

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    Well I never knew that! Interesting. Thank you

    I always let the turbo cool after a session, but the option to continue cooling the engine after turning it off appeals. From a longevity point of view to reduce the engine temperature. Since going external wastegate engine, oil and particularly under bonnet temps have risen. My whole build has been to oversize the cooling capacity where possible and this is something I'm considering.

    On track, no matter what the ambient temperature or length of session, water temperature has never gone over 90 degrees c
     
  7. Notso Swift Forum Member

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    Because neither pump will be working as efficiently as possible. One pump will be a restriction to the other unless they just happen to be perfectly matched in speed and flow... which then begs the question what is the benefit, you are getting the same result for more total energy loss (driving the mechanical water pump and the alternator to power the EWP) If they are not matched it could even cause water cavitation... which reduces your cooling ability further.

    If you want to maintain a little flow after shutdown them maybe a small circulation pump running on one of the smaller branch circuits (like the turbo if that is what is the concern)
     
  8. HPR

    HPR Administrator Admin

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  9. jamesa Forum Junkie

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    Protecting against `heat soak` then ... would you also configure the radiator fan to keep running in tandem ?

    What corresponding oil temperature do you have please ?
     
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  10. Nige

    Nige Paid Member Paid Member

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    I already run the fans when the engine is off for a couple of minutes just to keep airmoving under the bonnet.

    My oil cooler has its own fan that I turn on when entering the paddock
     
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  11. Nige

    Nige Paid Member Paid Member

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    I agree, which is why I was asking :thumbup:

    My concern is that if I put a pump anywhere in the existing system, it would have the effect you suggest. So I don't want to put it in the turbo return and actually reduce flow there when on track.

    I would like to keep the whole engine cooling after stopping it rather than just one area.

    I work with pumps and pumped systems at work, but on a far larger scale than this, so I share your concerns
     
  12. EZ_Pete

    EZ_Pete Forum Junkie

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    The one I mentioned a few posts back is Pierburg part number 7.02058.01
    20mm hose fittings to fit a matrix pipe or same size, you could possibly find power and flow-rate specs online somewhere.
    Only weighs 276g and presents no hint of resistance to flow when I blow through it as hard as I can.

    Failing to upload a photo of it, if you want to have a look try this link:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/04l1iwpwhx73w7r/20170819_133749.jpg?dl=0
     
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  13. Nige

    Nige Paid Member Paid Member

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    As I only really need this to keep the water flowing rather than to keep the engine cool when on track, I'm wondering if something like that might be sufficient.

    I'm still unsure where to plumb it in, so it doesn't form a shortcut under normal use or a loop bypassing the pump when the engine is stopped [:s]
     
  14. EZ_Pete

    EZ_Pete Forum Junkie

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    It's yours if you'd like it to try (possibly off the car initially to see if it still works at all, it's been a while since it was in service - 5 or more years).
    Not sure if your car still has a heater matrix; but in my car it was just a case of cutting the rubber part of the matrix return hose and sticking it inline there. Think there might be some very hot things in that area of your car...
     
  15. RobT

    RobT Forum Junkie

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    I'd be tempted to remove the impellor from the original pump and fit a fully programmable Craig David system where the electric pump and rad fans can work together. Got this on Radical and its an awesome set up. The digital system. Fast warm up and run-on capability after engine shut down. Can also run the pump manually to purge all air from water circuit after a rebuild.
     
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  16. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    This topic is on Electric standalone coolant pumps, The likes of what Richard and Rob are suggesting. If the correct size is chosen, it would allow you to accurately reject heat energy from your cooling system only when needed as well as be programmed to run on if required. It is a feature some modern production engines employ today.
    I am not sure how running pump with the engine off, on a system that does not overheat, according to your feedback has to do longevity? You are free to explain what you mean to us.

    While you quoted a VR6 12v in your post, the pump you said you are aware of is called an auxiliary run-around pump. It is plumbed on a small coolant circuit that by-passes the stat. Some models, such as the V6 engine fitted to my 'S3' and our Bora VR5 20v also have check valves to ensure the right direction of flow. The engine does not benefit from this auxiliary pump when it is running.
    Production high output 1.8T and all VR engines have known local hotspots when the cooling system stops flowing. This can promote PI on restart and running. So the solution is 'V51' aka the runaround pump to reduce such risk.


    Nothing wrong with adopting a modular engineer approach and adapting OEM components with their features to your specific vehicle project. I built a lot of the WOLF R like that and use that basis for other vehicular projects.
    However with some concerns, given that you drive the car at almost competition levels of use, to reduce the chances of human error due to using a component outside it's design intent, I would consider and research more purpose built components such as what RobT was suggesting, in addition to reviewing your exhaust coatings.
     
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  17. Nige

    Nige Paid Member Paid Member

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    Simply because I know how much the heat spreads through the engine when it has stopped. I know this from taking temperature readings when I turn it off and then at various intervals afterwards. Trying to reduce that heat energy sat spreading throughout the engine can only be a good thing imo


    Pretty much as you explained already. Maybe Vw were aware of hotspots on the abf, but for daily driving didn't see the need for a run on pump at the time? Perhaps if they had released an abf turbo that would have been fitted with a small run on pump?

    My downpipe and wastegate exhaust are both wrapped and have heat shield between that and the bulkhead / tunnel. In the paddock or after a run, cabin temps are as hot as they used to be when it was n/a.:o The only remaining option is ceramic coating.

    Heat management, whilst keeping an eye on cost and weight is a tricky balance, but one I have a handle on although I freely admit there is room for improvement.

    Engine temperature when running, even in close proximity to a 911 (they seem to generate more heat than most) are completely under control as are inlet temps. They don't exhibit any increases even over a few hard driven close laps [:D]
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
  18. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    You measured under bonnet temp, not heat energy. No evidence exists to suggest whether the current levels of heat you happened to measure is a good thing or not.


    I explained on the basis on my knowledge of the EA113 high power 20vT and VR engines. Not EA827 designs.

    Volkswagen Motorsport did produce a ABF G60 motor and as far as I am aware no such system was fitted, which does not answer if there was any localised hotspots in such an engine design.



    So in the basis of your underbonnet measurements and your subjective observations, I read that you have managed the excess heat generated from turbocharging to levels seen when the car was NA. Therefore running an auxiliary 'V51' system, designed for another purpose is not the solution to rejecting heat created from running the car around the track.

    Motorsport and racing is expensive, but usually the cost can be justified if there is a valid reason. There is always a component made specific for the cause such a standalone electric water pump.
    So far apart from being too anal monitoring underbonnet temps, which has no correlation to similar built car, I do not see an issue, if those underbonnet temps to not cause heat ingress into the charge system when the car is in motion.
     
  19. Nige

    Nige Paid Member Paid Member

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    I measured with a thermal imaging camera over a 20 minute period from engine shutdown at several intervals :thumbup:
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2017
  20. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    It needs to correlate back to an ideal engineering reference (of which there is none). So while sharing it made good reading and insight to what happens for this audience, on engineering terms what your shared does not necessarily mean there is an untoward problem to solve.
    As I have already pointed out, an auxiliary water pump from an OEM VW/AUDI application has different reasons for the manufacturer to warrant the extra cost adding that component and it's support to a production vehicle.

    There might be more benefit for you to fit an electric water pump.

    If you are worried about weight, such a component replaces the old external water pump and you can add drivers to the ECU to switch it on and off as you require. There will be a premium, but that is motorsport :thumbup:
     

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