Ex-Mark Lovell 'Gilders' Gr. A Golf Rallye

Discussion in 'VAG Motorsport' started by A.N. Other, Apr 30, 2008.

  1. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    I found this pic tucked away in an old Rabbit magazine (Autumn '97) - though I'd scan it up just in case it turns up.

    It's a UK-built car, but no sight or sound of it since. mk1g60turbo recently heard of a car in Ireland, which rapidly disappeared to Belgium, but no clue which one it was. Sounded 'worksy', tho.

    Was used on British events, run separately from the German cars. Power Engineering did the engine (Dave Power IIRC?), French WTI 6-speed 02A gearbox, not sure who did the shell, and it was run out of Gilders' dealership.

    Rabbit41Autumn97.JPG
     
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  2. alonzo Forum Member

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    I've recently sold a 1990 Golf GTi 16v in Black that has a plate with new timing settings ect... under the bonnet that says the engine has been modified by Gildersport and in the history it has the details on the engine build done by Guildersport. There is a letter saying a limited number of these engines where built in a joint venture with VW motorsport who where apparently based at Gilders while they where looking after the Golf Rallyes that VW where competing in at the time. The specifications on the engine including a rolling road report iirc shows it has 190bhp which by all accounts is pretty good as my old BR motorsport 2ltr 16v was 180bhp and my current GTi engineering RE2000 16v has 170bhp.
    Does anyone know anymore information about what went on at Guilders back in 1989-1991.
     
  3. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    Little more than what's above I'm afraid, and nothing known on the road-car tuning side - but I know a chap I can ask.
     
  4. alonzo Forum Member

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    Any info you can get Chris would be much appreciated.
     
  5. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    Right, a bit of info at last!

    These Guildersport cars originated from the Sheffield base of the Guilders dealerships.

    It was the only UK dealership that VW was authorised under guarantee to modify new VW cars (though I'm sure Scotts had the Oettinger guarantee on theirs too).

    The produced a number of tuned up VWs, but from what the chap recalls who used to work there, they were very bolt-on.

    • Polos Coupe (Momo Benetton Steering wheel, 5-spoke alloys, go faster stripe, Jetex exhaust, K&N filter)

    • Golf II 1300 - weber carb & sundries

    • Golf Mk2 Drivers - diffferent carburettor (single Weber), jetex, alloys.

    • GTIs, cams, Jetext exhaust, airbox mods/filters. Cams were about as deep as they got into the engine. No recollection of any porting.

    So very much bolt ons. Not much/anything in the way of ECUs/black box tuning.

    Each car type had their own special edition names
     
  6. Fitzie New Member

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    Ex Mark Lovell G60 Rallye

    Hi Everyone, Ive just signed up as Ive been researching the ex Lovell Golf Rallye G60 campaigned by Gilders in the 1990/91 British open rally championship. The search brought me to Club GTI and on it I read a post which gave a picture of the car as featured in a 1997 Rabbit article showing the car on Gilders Sheffield forecourt,presumably for sale.
    Well for any one interested I have just taken delivery of the car as pictured and as it has been stood idle since the nineties I have been given the task of resurrecting the car and making it run again. Some of you may be asking why Ive been asked to bring it back to life and thats because I was one of the three men who built the car back in 1989.
    The guy who bought it back in the nineties was intending to run it on rallies in the UK, but due to family and buisness commitments the car was put to one side and almost forgotten.
    Then he had a local firm rebuild the engine (reason unknown) but it has not even run since. The common mistake is that Gilders of Sheffield built and run the car as the official uk works team, but this wasnt so. The car was originaly purchased as a standard road car by Alistair Sutherland from Lockyears VW dealership to be turned into a groupN rally car for the British rally championship in 89. But after a couple of events resulting in retirements due to failure of suspect mechanical components Alistair was approached (his team was Riverfame Motorsport) by VW UK and asked to quote for converting the car to full group A spec with the intention of using it for Mark Lovell to challenge for the British Title in 1990. And after a six month gestation period Alistair was approached by Gilders and asked to run it under their name from a purpose equipped motorsport dept at one of their sites based in Selby,which he did and I tagged along to run the mechanical side of the operation. Sadly late in 1991 VW uk felt the time had come to call an end to the rally programme so the car was put to rest,I left for pastures new and the car was just a memory until late last year when the current owner got in touch and asked me to assist him with getting it back on the road. Well yesterday it was trailered to my workshop and left with me to have a look. I will update as soon as I can find the time to make a start on it,but as Im still building cars for motorsport it wont be for a little while yet.
    I hope this post will please some of you who I know will have missed the beast and wondered where she went.
    Oh and I nearly forgot...Hi to Alan Lovelady who used to work at the Gilders dealership where the car was based.
    Regards
    Fitzie
     
  7. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    Welcome Fitzie and great to hear the car is in safe hands.

    Two of us are currently trying to research this car (assuming there is only 1 car? G888 NWB?) - enquiries into Gilders etc - so this moves it much further forward!

    I spoke to Alan Lovelady a couple of years ago - he used to help run part of the large GTI International event, as well as being a long time Club GTI member/regional host. I spoke with him about the Group A programme and the Sutherland name did come up in that conversation, but I've never pieced any more of it together.

    If it was a Group N shell, that at least crosses it off the Matter Group A shell list which is being assembled here.

    Look forward to perhaps a couple of pictures, just to give us a taster?

    In time, we'll merge these threads together.

    Whilst we're talking, do you know who built Vince Wetton's Group A Rallye? H588 EUT
     
  8. Fitzie New Member

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    Thanks Chris.
    The shell was stripped and dipped and I did all of the welding as per group A when new. The cage was Matter which I fitted as were the seat mountings and guards, it was to all intents and purpose a Matter spec but UK built car, but at the time it was built here in UK the welding in of cages to Group N cars was a grey area so we stayed away from that.
    The car is indeed G888NWB, but the ravages of time (17years) have taken the heart out of it although it isnt a basket case.I will however have my work cut out as there are no records of the wiring loom or build spec other than the memory banks in my old head.
    The engine was indeed built originaly by David Power of Power engineering as were the superchargers which used to ingest themselves at regular intervals. It did and indeed still does have the WTI six speed cable operated DOG box. I can only take time and a little care and see what comes of it all. I suppose I could start again with wiring and engine management, but that would be cheating and the car would no longer be the ex Lovell machine. The guy who owns it wants it to be running as it was and used in the same original spec and colour scheme as a sort of tribute to the Late Mark Lovell. Amazingly its still as it finished its last rally (Trackrod 1991) same colour schem as in all of the original pics and as soon as I get some time I will upload some current pics.
     
  9. Fitzie New Member

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    I nearly forgot!....
    The guy who built and ran Vince Wettons car was John Hook. He was an ex David Sutton mechanic who left in the late eighties and went to build and run Vinces car.
    It was a good car and I believe Vinces budget was signifficantly more than ours as his development work on reliability was way ahead of our meagerly funded effort.
    I am fairly certain that Vinces car was sold overseas (America?) And I havnt seen or heard from John in many years
     
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  10. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    Brilliant - this is just the info I've been looking for.

    Was G888 originally a UK road car, or a Hannover supplied Group N shell?

    I agree about trying to keep it a period resto. This will prompt me to load three articles onto this page here about G888 / Rallyes which may help you with detail.

    This car is an important piece of UK VW Motorsport history so it's great that it's in safe caring hands. One day VW will recognise it, but for now the Rallye enthusiasts will be crooning all over it.

    Ref H588, thanks re: John Hook. Username VR6T I think knows (or of?)him.

    The car went to Scott Fuller in the USA, who also owned an ex-Alister McRae Mk3 Golf kitcar + one other.

    http://www.specialstage.com/forums/showpost.php?p=323254&postcount=12

    It was used for a while, and then totally rebuilt, turning up with Xtrac transmission parts. I don't know if this is what Vince Wetton ran from the outset. Here is the car:

    http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=4074829

    Location of the car is now unknown.

    One thing which has proved elusive is any documentation for the works Rallyes. There are various owners of ex-works Group A Rallyes who I'm in touch with, alll struggling to find anything. Can you ask the owner of this car if he has anything with it? Homologation docs are on the VWMotorsport website, but there are no parts manuals anywhere - and various people have tried.
     
  11. Dave

    Dave Pedantic Old Fart Paid Member

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    Nice to know that such an important car is in good hands!
     
  12. Fitzie New Member

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    The only docs with this car are original(not copies) of Homologation papers and also the original dispensation certificate from the F.I.A. allowing the car to be run without the resrictors which are mandatory in groupA/N turbocharged cars
     
  13. Fitzie New Member

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    Hi again.
    Ive read on a little since coming accross the thread posted about the Gilders car and posted below was a query about the origins of the Gildersport modified road cars.
    I noticed that it was said that all of the sport conversions originated from the Gilders Sheffield base,once again this isnt entirely so.They were all concieved and modified at the Selby HQ (Gilders of Hambleton) on the A63.
    Some of what Chris says is true regarding small mods such as exhausts/carbs/suspension tweeks,but some were seriously modified with internal engine mods such as a Corrado 8v1800 uprated to 2ltr with steel crank and camshaft mods,sporting a freeflow exhaust (no cat) and a competition paddle clutch,I cant remember the power output but I once borrowed it for the weekend and it was seriously quick as my ex wife will testify.
    We even built up a modified road going Rallye which was the subject of an article in Volkswagen Audi Car magazine May 1991 and that gave 202bhp and ran the supercharger at an overgeared 1.9:1 instead of the factory 1.6:1 with 1.5bar of boost.
    There were plenty of cars that were breathed on by the speciality arm of the Gilders franchise but all of those mods were carried out at Selby under the guidance of Motorsport principal Alistair Sutherland,himself an ex british champion in a Metro 6R4. I do have to admit however that the engine internals and build were all courtesey of David Power of Power Engineering in Uxbridge.
    I think that when VW pulled the plug on the rally programme that somehow the heart was torn out of the Gildersport endeavour and it ceased to operate very shortly after..
     
  14. mk1. Forum Junkie

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    nice post:thumbup: club gti seems to be a magnet lately for special bits of vw kit:)
     
  15. fthaimike Forum Addict

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  16. Fitzie New Member

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    G60 Rallye

    Hi again. Ive managed to find a couple of hours today to look over the car and it was a little dissappointing if Im honest. The car has stood for many years and as a result of this there are a number of issues to be addressed.
    1) The fuel cell (bag tank) is well past its sell by date as they only have a limited life of usually 5 years and this one was commissioned 20th March 1990.
    2) The fuel left in the fuel cell has also deteriorated causing mayhem in the cell and filter.
    3)The battery master switch has corroded so badly inside that the contacts are no longer usable and as such kept tripping out whilst I was trying to use a jump pack to turn over the motor.
    4)Corrosion has attacked quite a number of electrical earthing points and also body panel joints/seems.
    5)Various connections and plugs corroded,wich could give me a hard time during diagnostics and starting.
    Although it may look like its a basket case it isnt as everything is attatched as it was when I last drove it (1991) and it seems likely that I could have it running quite soon if I get my finger out. I want to emphasise that its a fill in job at the workshop during quiet spells or if I can spare some weekend time to have a look.
    Whatever happens I will try to post updates on here and hopefully some pictures soon.
    It still looks as it did when Mark Lovell last drove it in the Gilders livery with his name on the sides,and the owner assures me that it will stay exactly like that.
     
  17. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    Great stuff.

    Thanks for clarifying the inaccuracies on the Gildersport cars. I took all the information in good faith and obviously it has been some time since then. Good info about the steel cranks and I wonder whose they were. Farndon were I think making some cranks at some stage, with BRM, GTI Engineering and possibly others offering stroker kits to the tuning market, which were fairly high end at the time.

    As you say, once the plug gets pulled, that's that - though motorsport and VW is littered with short-run campaigns, which often create profile, on a budget. This was a classsic example. The Junior Team was another of the same ilk.

    Just on the G888 shell, was it an ex-road car, or a Group N shell, supplied with no underseal from Germany?

    Do you recall if Wetton's car had the X-trac transmission in the UK? I assume not as it wasn't homologated? I recall Wetton on the '94 RAC, possibly earlier ones too.

    How's the shell looking and has it been dry stored? It seems to me that it's been stored somewhere since 1997 and judging by your location, it hasn't moved far.
     
  18. VR6T

    VR6T Forum Member

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    John Hook did develop a straight cut dog box with X-trac but didn't get buy in from VAG motorsport IIFC. The main weak point of the rallye system is the 1:1 step off to the rear, if you look at other systems like the Escort Cosworth they spin the prop shaft at 1:4. it reduced the torque issues in the crown wheel and pinions. Johns setup had a plate type diff instead of the VC.

    I do have a few bits that where development parts for this transmission.
     
  19. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    Done.

    Anatomy of a Rallye
    Anatomy of a Rallye (2)
    Supercharged Stage Star

    :thumbup:
     
  20. Willber Forum Member

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    Fitzie you are not far from me. I work in Bingley and live in Leeds. If you ever need an extra pair of hands I would love to come over and have a look/help you out!

    Regards

    Will.
     

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