my view of this is that for the sake of 300 odd for the big valves, springs, retainers etc its not worth not doing. Id rather do it all properly first time round (even if it takes a bit longer with me saving up the money) than build the engine and wish i had forked out at the beginning whats 300 odd in the big scheme of things.
hee mr h How is it going with the flow figures of the cross flow? can je make some room in yout inbox, i want to send you a private message greetz
545.45 beers And lets face it, you need them after all this pub talk. I have started to dig out my parts and start assembling things.
I will jog on in shortly then, but most of the BHP and LBFT figures that have been quoted for the counterflow are heresay. The 154.1bhp & 138.5lb/ft of George HH is not what I first thought. 138.5LBFT from a 2.0L is the same my 1.9L 8v was putting, fair enough mine did have a BVH so flow as mentioned earlier for the crossflow could/is similar to the same as a my ported couterflow BVH. It is great numbers for not alot. But add price of custom inlet manifold + skim etc... My engine had the ECU mapped by Stealth to optimise components - yes. What is not mentioned about this 2.0L is that it has had the head skimed so that the compression has been raised to 11-1 - everyone knows that bigger compression and cams to suit will up the output. Also it was not stated that he is running his own manifold which may affect output for the better or the worse. Has George HH's been mapped to suit his setup? If not there should be more LBFT to come.
Yeah, I finished my job (mapping a 16v) and got paid...think is it time to go buy a head off a MK4 X flow, hack up an inlet, get the machine shop to shave the head for free and buy a cam, stick on my 8v dyno rig and show these 16v boys what can be done. All controlled of course. I have closed one eye and can focus on the job at hand.
no it hasnt, if you dig out his thread its just running std digi i think. Mike H's comment is with some porting and an optimised map you should be looking at about 160bhp and similar torque. But quite right fully said all this is hear say...........for now
I think Mike was talking about an engine on ITB's and SEM, not really in the same ball park or price figure. Yes with money they can work well, but it takes money. Show me an 8v that produces the figures and has cost less than a 700. (The price of an ABF Digi ECU with MK1 header). You can map standard Digi, my question was has this been done! it does not say yes or no in the thread.
Ahhhh, i missed the word proper when i read it lets just say for the sake of the title.........No unless you like to waste your money lol
You can map fuel only in VAF based digi 2 and both in MAP based digi 3.x. I would imagine the mk2 2E x flow runs digi 2 based on the use of VAF, so for the best optimisatioin he too will have to get some system that would allow calibration of both fuel and spark for it to run even stronger than posted. It all starts to add up eventually. Madasafish has carbs already though so SEM or any control for that matter I suppose does not apply to him.
If you do go the cross flow route please post all your mods, outputs and costs. It would be great to get some decent figures out of the old 8v for a reasonable sum.
Yea no worries...............is that so you can work out how many abf's i could of bought Theres plenty of time for other engines in the future, im only 22 so got lots of time for bigger and better things and can blame the 8v on the lack of experience and youth
madasafish, I would suggest you follow up on what you said in the other thread and get some sort of baseline. 1. Dyno the car on a modern and repeatable dyno, with the best state of tune. 2. Display before and after. 3. Even with carbs log things such as AFR and optimise with fuel jets, air correction etc. 4. Experiment with various dizzy set pionts 3. Evaluate against objectives i.e torque range, max peak pionts, etc 6. Discuss and plan next steps. My personal view is what you have now and the work you are about to do using what you have already it is not worth it. You might as well optimise what you have pending a good baseline. There are guys on here with very good 8v motors, though non X flow and thiers work very well on just a road road tune. Mike_H is one example of an 8v that pulls very hard. I cannot see the move to X flow as making a significant change to his engine based on what his torque profile is like have and based on the profile of the two X flow cars discussed on here regardless of what was or was not wrong with them. The fact that you do not run SEM will hurt the optimisation and flexibilty of your current set up. That is my 2p. To get it "right" it will add up! Is it worth going X flow? hmm... Have you tried optimising your non crossflow first? Hope you did not mind the light banter... The engine bay looks clean though.
What's wrong with trying something that on initial impressions appears to have more potential? Toyo, do you have no interest in what could be achieved? I cannot believe a smart and inquisitive person like you is not a little intrigued by this. If you have no interest in it then why the presence on here? He can also sell on all the bits he does not use to recoup costs. Bare in mind he has most of the parts required already so all this cost stuff is a gain a little off the mark. How many hours you spent mapping your project? And smudge must have a hefty amount of costs involved with his build too.
I have no problem with the set up I've got, in fact I really enjoy driving it, it goes well and pulls hard. I'm not just looking to the Crossflow for extra power, the first reasons I actually started looking into it is to simply move the carbs to the front, as when stuck in traffic I get alot of heat soak with inlet temps getting up to 60 deg c. That's with a load of heat barriers wrapped exhausts etc. Another big factor for gong x flow is the fact that at the minute I have had my 8v fully rebuilt but cannot run any air filter on it and only 30mm trumpets due to the lack of space between the bulk head. In my opinion if I can fit a filter to my engine it's going to save all the dust and crap getting into it and save the rings and bores giving up way before they should do. I admit I may sound stupid having a good engine at the mo and not knowing it's true potential without already moving on to some thing else. But hey there's got to be a few muppets banging around on this forum to keep people amused.
I have just re-read the whole thread and think I understand that madasafish100 already has quite a built 8v, is the last pic your engine? If so what is your full spec? as it has not been mentioned (maybe a bit here or there ) this would obviously have a big influence with regard to 'going' crossflow. So what is your engine spec? Edit just seen your post above, so you have no idea on base line but as stated it will make bigger differences with heat soak and filters. Is your head on there now BVH? will your cross flow be BVH? If you did go crossflow how would you know you have made any gains? or losses?
yes that is my engine as it is now in that pic above, the spec is; 1.8 bottom end bored and stroked to 2l, balanced bottom end and lightened flywheel, 11.1:1 CR 40/35mm ported and polished BVH, tsr 103 cam (i believe this is a 285/272 split duration) fully flowed and port matched head and manifolds. As for a power figure, like already said i do not know, it has been set up on a RR but i have not got the print out and do not know the figure it is running at at the minute (the rr it was set up on did not have a computer system but still has the exhaust gas analyser) , i am going to get it spun up on the rollers before i take it apart so i know what i have now and can compare. The crossflow i was "thinking!" about doing will not be big valved, it will be running the std 39.5/33 valves with 7mm stems but with a specially cut profile to the valve and seats to ge the most out of the OE sized valves. This whole crossflow thing is all a bit of a mystery at the minute and until theres a head done and tested it may all just be a big old waste of time. But from reading around on the forum it looks to be that the crossflow testing that has been done to date is showing very good figures. some thing like a std crossflow head flowing as much as a ported counter flow BVH. So with things looking hopeful for better flow, getting the carbs away from the heat and having cold air straight into the mouths as you do on the valver with bodies on it seems to be a good idea.
I would say then as seen as your engine is already so developed in for a penny in for a pound! Get it dynoed for a base map and then chuck on the standard crossflow head, back to the dyno, setup/tune and see what it pulls. If it is not as good, port it? or go back to your old head or change pistons, (new manifold with your carbs) and a 16v head? I didn't realise you already had such a developed 8v hence why I was trying to steer you away from spending to much one but you already have so why not spend alittle more? Nothing like throwing good money after bad Would hopefully then give us all some useful data to go off in the future.
ahhhh i see, yea i suppose i should of said the spec at the start Well i wasnt going to bother just strapping on the std head as it will cost me more for set up if i do it twice. Im also not going to bother putting both on a flow bench to see actual figures of flow as i dont have this resource. All figures will be off a RR and possibly even different dynos so it may not even be a fair comparison but im going to do it just cos..........well why the heck not really. we might start a revolution lol If it turns out to be naff i will stick with it and start thinking of some thing else. Ive considered the 16v head on my block in the future, but i brings up a CR problem of being too low for N/A use, unless i fork out for forged pistons etc and then it would work out cheaper to buy a whole 16v block.
That picture fo your engine bay told a 1000 words... A modern dyno will give a proper plot of torque, and where the dips are due to non optimised combustion. The number it chucks out is all relative to something, but not always comparative to another brand. Which ever machne you use, make sure the rpm is recorded correctly and you will have a good enough torque trace to work with to assess next steps. Always use that dyno for future updates. If you do switch dynos do not make mods between and perform a reference baseline else you can lose the abilty to assess powertrain improvment due to machine brand /operator variabilty. Following some sort of method on this would allow you to head in the right direction and spend money as required.
