Do those 1000 words start with, for all the money you spent you could of bought a 16v by now. Lol haha Well the problem I've got is that I would use a different rolling road to the one I get it tuned on as I will use a local rolling road just to get a reading of what I've got now, and the one I would use to get it tuned on would most likely be with mr H who is 150 miles away from my house. I'm not going to do the 300 mile journey just to get it spun up for a baseline figure.
Once Mr H has worked his majic take it back to your local RR that you base lined it on, this will give you the info you need - simples. It may cost you an extra 50 for the run but it is always best to know and as seen as 'money is not the object with this build' it wont matter.
J No. It put into perspective picturewise, where you are starting from. You can baseline as per smudge's suggestion to make your local shop the reference. However the fact that your current set would not have the opportunity to be optimized would leave further questions if the swap was justified air filter issues aside.
Also the local reference would show raw difference between mods rather than just the number be it lower or higher than the other machine.
Just out of interest, how much have you guys spent in total on your 16v projects including mapping sessions if you could not of done it yourself? Seeing as money has now come into conversation too...?
For the lastest inlet manifold etc about 1400 (may be a little higher due to forgetten costs) including the mapping, this is about the same price as my old 8v mentioned earlier. I do need to optimise the map further so Dyno time will be need soon and that will bump up the build costs further. I would love to rebuild my gearbox with LSD and higher final drive but that will cost upwards of 1000 so ill be saving for that in the future. But the car does go very well in her present state. You can get very close to my current state of tune from a standard ABF engine and optimised map (see Gurd's MK1), (this could be done on the Digi ECU to keep costs down) that would cost you Donor car ABF sub 500, minus the costs from selling of the donor car spares (brakes, wheels, rear beam, etc) + the cost of an exhuast manifold 300 + the cost of mapping? (which i would not like to guess Eddie?)
Why is a head skim deemed to be some kind of cheat or expensive issue with all this? 50 absolute max cost up here for a couple of passes to remove a 1mm. Is it not allowed because you cannot do this to a 16v with out valve clearance issues? Maybe the eel munchers charge 500 making it a major expense. The same dynos do not always produce the same results, which has been seen in the past. Especially when you are trying to find small improvements or losses. Oil and water temperatures, and other factors are not logged on the dyno sheets. Both Toyotec and Smudge have posted their initial responses without even knowing what engine spec Madasfish's car was running. So raising the cost issues is hardly relevant when he does not have to do the vast majority of the work stated. Head swap can be done without taking his engine out of the car iirc. I do not recall folk being so critical in others threads with regard to costs and scrutiny of projected results. I am sure it would have annoyed anyone having this tainting their build. Folks ready to pounce if any failure to meet expectations occurred.
Crossflow all the way i say. Wether its an 8V or 16V Even the G40 8V Crossflow 200bhp from cams, re-map and pulley conversion. G60 Counterflow struggled to get much more power. so you could use these two engines as a good example of Crossflow v Counter flow, and the results were that a smaller capacity engine and Charger could achieve results nearly as good or better than a Counter flow higher capacity and larger charger. The reason the G60 never really lasted. Give me a G40 anyday and we will get over 200bhp
James have you got any pics of that? Surely they must have a slight bend them in order to get from the line of carb mouth to the height of the scuttle?
is that really worth it? the cost of the longer trumpets/manifold would cost far more than the crossflow head swap, and still be in a compromised position. much better to spend 50 odd on the crossflow, which flows as good as standard than a flowed counterflow. the trumpets would be on the front, getting as much cold air as they need my friends, its all smoothed and scene but you get the idea
My personal life, background, experience and expertise that surrunds me determines if I would do a project or not. Some of those who contributed to my project I value as priceless it would be difficult to put a price on my 315PS car. Further some of my projects are used as development tools to try out some idea or component that may or may not work. Mapping is part of my expertise and takes a long time in order to perfect to my standards.
Problem is it that the throttle bodies in that pic are at a different angle to the carbs in my car so this would not be an option for me. If I extend the trumpets they would not move up tirades the scuttle they would butt up against the bulkhead. Only way I could get them into the scuttle would be if I put an angle in the trumpets.
Just a few observations but take in to account I'm obviously biased (towards 8v in case any of you don't don't know me) . From my experience it's all down to planning. It will cost the same to build a 180bhp 8v as a 160bhp 8v and little more to make a 200bhp 8v. A 270 cam costs the same as a 285 or a 320. A set of 40's cost the same as a set of 45's and a road ported head not a lot less that a properly ported race head (pretty polish as opposed to actually removing some metal here and there). There is a bit more than that to it but you get the idea, planning decide what you want BEFORE you start. It's no use buying a 270 degree cam, getting a head that has simply been polished and a set of 40's (withouut getting the mainfold ported and matched to the head/carbs) and complaining that you only have 130bhp or so when you could have used a 285 degree cam, had a proper porting job done and stuck a set of 45's on, done a bit of research and hard work and got an easy 150>160+bhp. If you want 180>200bhp then you will need to get valves and probably springs and a set of pistons to match (and some ARP bits and bobs to keep it together but you would with and ABF or similar) The difference is with a 16 v there are 2 or 8 more of everything so the costs go up just from that perspective. Again it's down to planning what you want or need. If you want 250bhp don't start with an 8v cross flow or non cross flow. If the Berg cup boys are to be believed then it seems like about 220bhp is the non cross flow sort of level and a cross flow will run to 235bhp. If you only want to run for 10 or 15 seconds then the rules change but for most applications then that is probably the sensible sort of level. In summary do your home work and decent enogh levels for mose uses can be got from an 8v and a bit more again from a cross flow.
See this is the problem I have, my knowlege is very limited and I don't have any "free" expertise on my side. Atleast you and me both have spent money on things that we don't know will work or not
Found it at last. This one has had a fair bit of money spent (no idea of outputs), You can see the layout gives more room for the inlet runner length than a counterflow 8v and a 16v. Hope the lad does not mind me linking the posts and he might appreciate not having a load of picky questions analysing every detail of his build. Bare in mind we could all jump on each other's threads and be sceptical or derogatory, so show some restraint please. http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1997052&postcount=103 http://www.clubgti.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1997083&postcount=106
The expertise that surrounds me is not free at all! It is priceless. I am not sure where you are coming from by your other statement.
