NASP FSI Content....2.2 litre and 9600 rpm? Read on!

Discussion in 'FSI (inc. GTI 2.0T)' started by Toyotec, Jul 5, 2015.

  1. RobT

    RobT Forum Junkie

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    Built my Simpson manifold into a square arrangement at the first collector region so that different connections could be tried. 1/4 2/3 is the norm obviously but the Duratec boys were seeing good results from 1/2 3/4. Never got round to really testing the concept properly.

    mani1.jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2015
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  2. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    Hmm...
    I heard you mention this before. I suspect based on the hardware fitted to the team with the Duratec engine, they found some specific benefit by tuning the pressure pluses at the secondary collector in a firing order that was delayed by 2 cylinders.
    It may not have been max peak power they were after, but probably some type of torque enhancement somewhere in the engine speed range.

    What was on the car before the above header?
     
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  3. RobT

    RobT Forum Junkie

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    Dont know specifics but it would have been midrange rather that top enhancement. Rallycross apps. I had an off the shelf milltec 4-1 before this, like the one on facebook presently, but modified with a better collector and 4 layer ceramic coated in and out.

    that simpson mani found loads of mid on my motor, but it was developed with lots of dyno time testing lengths out. next to no top end gain, but massive auc gain.

    its all in the testing......
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2015
  4. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    The RX application confirms what I thought. More midrange!

    I was never a fan of a 4-1 VW header , which seems to be generic and widely used. To me lots of useful torque is lost with that type of scavenging tuning.
    This may be a split and bearing in mind your engine could be operated where components like these could work, when you played about with the primary lengths, matched the calibration for the hardware and retested, what trend did you see in torque and power profiles?
     
  5. RobT

    RobT Forum Junkie

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    Last edited: Aug 2, 2015
  6. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    'Delta' illustration missing.

    I remember that discussion now and the climate.
     
  7. TonyB Paid Member Paid Member

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    4/2/1 is the way top tuners are going these days, more mid range. Basically the way forwards seems to be a similar length to a 'std' 4/1 primary with a short secondary 2/1 length.

    I've not looked in to the detail too much but I'm guessing its similar to two stroke technology with expansion chambers. There, a taper is introduced that speeds up the draw on the fresh charge in to the cylinder as the gasses expand up the taper, there is then a parallel section to time the 'fill' of the chamber then a reverse taper to stop the charge moving - its all very clever stuff as every change in dimension, length etc. has a different effect. This is all dictated as the two stroke has ports rather than valves so not quite the same as a 4 stroke.

    In the four stroke scenario I'm guessing that the flow on one of the linked cylinders assists with speeding up cylinder filling by creating a vacuum in the associated pipe. Then the second junction either slows the filling by creating some form of negative pressure to stop filling or gives a secondary vacuum to assist the first scavenge effect. The length of the pipes is obviously critical to the design of the rest of the engine but the current 4/2/1 log primary/short secondary obviously works in the mid range very well, then when the gasses are running out side of the designed parameters the engine then 'see's' the exhaust as a normal 4/1 again.

    Definitely the design I will be using and it will be custom made/designed to suit the motor.
     
  8. Notso Swift Forum Member

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    Probably someone thinking that MotoGP do alright with the odd firing, but they do it for a different reason and have the whole engine tuned to the double bang and mid range power, amazing thing, fashion


    That pic is 4-1 or am I missing something? coming into the same collector is suspect the "rotation theory" of a circle being formed by the pulses is a pretty long bow for verified data. with a 4-2-1 I always assumed the benefit was double because the small diameter of the secondary means you keep the velocity up and the pulse waves dont hit each other. With the 4-1 the pulses are at even timing regardless of where they enter
     
  9. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    Pretty much 4-2-1.

    Simpson RobT Ibiza.png

    I once borrowed a MK3 Kit car 16v hotend, which was very similar to Rob's Simpson header and put on on a stock plenum ABF engine that had a mappable ECU. With the calibration matched to the hardware in this case just the kit car 4-2-1 exhaust, unfortunately the engine ran out of VE before the real benefit could be felt. It did have a very small increase in torque in the top end to the 7300 rpm cut out. So the right direction just not in buckets as a properly tailored built engine would have. That engine ended up running a much shorter EU 4-2-1 manifold system, I had bought and a re worked downpipe which was more suited to the torque band of 4-5krpm. I had research that a similar system in the Group A Mk3 16v was good for 220bhp@7500rpm and a 8000rpm rev limit.
     
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  10. Notso Swift Forum Member

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    D'oh now on PC I can see it clearly
    I thought the back 2 were hidden, but they weren't there!
     
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  11. Tristan

    Tristan Paid Member Paid Member

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    was that actually fitted to a car , or just on a Dyno?
     
  12. RobT

    RobT Forum Junkie

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    That was ceramic coated and then fitted for I think 2 years, and dyno setup appropriately. Lovely piece of kit and perfect fit (although it was VERY close over the top of the steering rack). 1000.
     
  13. Tristan

    Tristan Paid Member Paid Member

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    Looks worth every penny.
     
  14. murph81 Forum Member

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    That Satchell 205 is class, was reading about it all night last night!
     
  15. voez73 New Member

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    voez73

    Hello,

    I'm building me an 827 bloc with a FSI head. Now I need solid followers for my project. What had you used in your engine ? Only Ferrea shims and OEM followers ?
    what's your max. RPM ?
    Thanks Andreas
     
  16. voez73 New Member

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    Hello guys, where can I buy camshafts and solid lifters (tappers) for the FSI engine with Jenvey throttle bodys ?
     
  17. HPR

    HPR Administrator Admin

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    What will the engine used for ?
    As much depend on what you try to achieve, fast road, occasional trackday, club motorsport...
    For fast road / trackday use and even motorsport upto ca 7300 rpm …
    It can be kept with hydro cams / lifters and OEM roll followers
    I found that valves did not close with under lifter shims fitted… altough the valve seats were also laid a bit deeper…

    Going solid lifters... the oem lifter can be modified to solid with shim inside
    and also use OEM roll follower
    Use of high lift cams need quite a number tweaks… and the right components…
    while high end race / rally engines give max power @ 7800 - 8200 rpm
     
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  18. voez73 New Member

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    I want to use the engine for race. High end tuning. More than 250 horsepower. I hope so :p. Can I open the OEM lifters for modifications Inside?
     
  19. HPR

    HPR Administrator Admin

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    Yes, Pull the upper part with rounded head out of the lower part
    Now make shims that fill the gap between both parts inside
     
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  20. voez73 New Member

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    Ok. Thank you :thumbup: I want to try it.
     

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