What is interesting when you veiw the results on the digi ECUs is that at leaner mixtures from the chipped PCMfrom 4-4.5 the two PCMs made slighty less torque then the chipped one/ It then fell away again. The chipped one hit high 14s to low 15s at 4-4.5K and full load and the STD one did 13s around the same piont so it may be that LeanBestTorque at this piont be around 13.6 or so. This is entered in the M/S tables. When the control parameters were accessed using the M/S yes I adjust fuel to how I thought it should be but what you do not see is my custom spark map which is very dfferent to a say a PB engine'd Golf. Fuelling is one thing the other is ignition timing to optimise torque and feel. IF you can get someone to access digifant 2 maps for both spark and fuel then you can do like I have done using a megasquirt.
The test is not perfect like what I would do in work and would have a few deltas. But with limited tools this is what can be done to get a picture of where you are heading. I used a popular "blitz" chip in the the second ECU. It produced a similar torque curve on a 1.8 PB albeit with less torque than my 2.0 and less audiable knock after optimising. The reason I tested that was that the chap who I got the chipped ecu off claimed it made a big difference to his car. I then tested his cliam. It shows that if he had spent time optimising his car using the exisiting OE components it may have out performed the 20 chip. At the time that 8v was converted to run on an ABF so we used my wifes car as the test bed and on 99 ron for Digifant tests and 95 fo M/S tests. Most "ebay"chips are a generic copy. If you have an eprom reader and comparison software you would see what I am talking about. My car went fine as well but as I own/owned a few quickish cars, one of them a 8v kjet, I thought there was more to be had from increasing the capacity. Hence the exercise.
i'd love to have megasquirt, but thats not an option at the moment. At the moment i can only try and prevent the car running lean. What maybe an option, is a custom fuelling re-map. The ebay chips i'm not sure about, but there is a guy that uses the forum who lives near me with a stealth chipped ecu that was set up for his 1.9 8v Gti engineering engine. We have spoken about doing a before and after run with that ecu to see what (if any) differences there are. As for the WOT switch, again, should that be adjusted to click on as soon as possible?
20 blitzchip then- yes or no I had thought these things increased fuelling by a set amount across the rev range, but after Toyotec's experiment it seems they leaned the mixture.
Thats why I want to know what chip he used and if he tested any other that are available or just this one? My car has all the symptoms of running a little rich and with impressive torque figures for a std engine it leads me to believe the chip does what it says on the tin. In order to say ALL chips of this type make the car run very lean surely you would need to test more than 1 chip?
What I've done in mine is fit some vauxhaul 'cream' injectors, which flow a wee bit more so should give a bit more fuel thru the rev range. Can't say I did it for any scientific reason though, they came up cheap, were nearly new and I thought my old ones were knackered edit: I don't have a wideband either so I can't give you any figures, all I can say is I got 141.9BHP on storms rolling road with no other mods except a chipped ECU off ebay. I've since taken it out since reading toyotecs comments, and it did 'seem' quicker though I don't have any way to prove it scientifically! I'd also be interested in one of these throttle bodies, what sorta money are we talking and does he need a spare sending to him? Edit: I believe my injectors are 214cc/min, the Bosch part # is 0 280 150 744
Nice graph jonny, are you sure that engine is std? bhp seems very high for just a chip on an 8v engine. incidently mine was 114bhp and 127ft with just a chip.
Its not not really the megasquirt you need, just easy access to the ignition and fuel tables. IF this is a 2 stage TB then leave it as it is. At WOT this should be on anyway as it was in my two initial tests. You can get it to tip in at part thorottle but at WOT you would be accessing the same mapping piont anyway. Remember the AFM does not only point to a fuel address but also ignition. And as I showed in the tests that AFRs between 14.9 and 13.6 may not have a large inpact on torque by itself if it is not optimised with appropiate ignition advance which is not shown but represented by the M/S torque curve in the second picture. But I do know that the chipped ecu I tried here did not make the car feel any faster even though my buddy thought it was the best 20quid he ever spent. I am sure another type of chip from a differrent batch may have shown changes, but not the type I was after in light of my old 8v 1.8 kjet that would get to 60mph in 7.44secs and rev to 6000rpm. I am also of the view that the EPROMs on digifant 2 ecus only store fuel maps and not ignition maps which seems to be on the CPU cache...I may be worng here though...
I forgot to say it had a 2.0 bottom end, kinda crucial information It is said that storms rollers are optimistic, my run was just before a std 1.8 GTI with a power rhoar & stainless zaust, he got 127.1bhp. Though they had issues lashing it down properly due to his front jacking points being rusted through! Apparentley if its not lashed down tight enough it gives high readings. A std MK3 ABF made 153BHP, make of that what you will Also toyo, forgot to ask in your other thread, did you reset the idle & CO after swapping the ECU over?
If you went by Storm you may have had 160bhp! On a serious note though, This is the problem with dyno testing unless we all use the same dyno to do before and after comparisons it is difficult to verify against other cars with just one standalone test especially when the data just contains WHP or BHP sweeps. This is why I do my own testing and verfiy by checking the improvements against sprint times or targets. If another car was to be checked with the same equipment it then joins my database.
how much to be 'checked' by your equipment edit: Yeah I base my result from what the dude after me got, its a close base line since the conditions should be near enough the same. + 20BHP is fine by me
On the chipped ECU. I plug and played for the first test logged data( this is what you are likey to do), Then I went through VW idle and mixture proceedure ( this what the a good CGTIer would do). Run, test and logged data. I then did it based on my understanding of this type of engine management system and it made no significant difference to car feel, AFRs or torque curve. Reinstalled STD PCM and rechecked, run, test and logged data. Make screen of results most stable and repeatable.
For my exercise? I have tested the same one as used in the test and I did say it was a "blitz chipped ecu" Chip bought for 20quid. Did not see why I had to test many as this was only done to verify a general claim that chip did make a "big"difference in an 8v digifant car. I heard others go on about these wonderful ebay chips. So I found out for myself. Result I was able to make my car run just like the car the ecu with chip came out of albeit with slighty more torque. Compared to the VAG ECU it performed worse. Both from data and from the feel of the car. If I had others I would have tested them even though I cant really see a 1.8 calibration suiting a the requirements of a different and larger engine. For my targets, factory settings will not do, neither would a burned eprom made by someone who does have a clue about my engine's ,compression ,custom mods and driving style. I am not saying all chips are rubbish. I am not sayinjg to remove your chip and put back the STD one. But unless you know what is in the cal by testing then you are going by hit and miss on your custom engine/powerpack. Notice I take a lot of time to do before and after testing with as much data included as I thnk the reader would understand. Even though the readings on the Gtech are not corrected to SAE/DIN stds you can see the accel traces of torque clearly once my RPM pick-up is calibrated properly. The exercise was not about chip testing it was about optimising hardware. If John is willing and as his car represents what we are taking about here 2.0 8v, we can do back to back tests in with VW eprom vs "chipped" Eprom vs the one I tested.; if we still have it, to gather more data... I am all for research.
I think the main point Toyotec is trying to make, is that even on a std MK2 1.8 GTI, whoever mapped the chip is making assumptions about the engine health, fuel type etc etc. Since it is not custom mapped on a rolling road to the exact engine, its never going to be the most optimal map. The effect is made worse with a 2.0 bottom end becasue the engine characteristics are changed, so the ignition map will never be quite right. Using megasquirt Toyo can tune the map to make the very best out of the engine, taking into account all the different variables that come into play and so getting the very best out of the engine. I hope that all makes sence to everyone I have just got off the phone with Toyo, and we have agreed to give the std/chipped ECU testing another go, my car is still running the std Digifant II map and I do still have my chipped ECU lying around to try. We will try to get together as many ECUs as possible and see what we can find out! Only issue is that as I said before my injectors are larger than std, plus now I have a lightly ported head plus a kent GS1-H cam, along with an ashley 4 branch (again, because they all came up cheap ) But since they'll all be tested on the same engine/managment we should be able to get some nice side-by-side comparisons going Edit: If anyone wants to donate ecus & chips for testing we'll try to check those too, but there may not be enough hours in the day
awesome. My engine specs seem similar to yours Rubjonny- 2.0 2e bottom end, stage 1 head, newman 268 cam, ANSA 4-branch (yet to be fitted) and a Jetex system. As well as the TB, of course. Therefore i'll be gagging to see if the 'chip' makes any difference. If it does, i'm in! I understand that ideally, the ignition map needs addressing to get the most out of the 2litre block, you can see the difference it has made through the revs in Toyoyec's MS experiment. But like most dubbers on here, i don't have the money to justify that at the moment. So if a 20 chip makes a nice difference and counteracts the lean AFR then i'll be very happy. Incidentally, those cream vauxhall injectors sounds like a good idea! any idea what model they were fitted to? i'll keep an eye out for them on the 'bay. My car has hit the 170k mark now, on what i believe are the standard injectors, so i'm pretty sure they could do with replacing. Did you notice any kind of difference after fitting?
I see what you're getting at Toyo, keep having to remind myself these were done on a 3A bottom end and not the PB so obviously the results would be different and I have always been dubious of my chip though as I do not have any AFR data as said although judging from 'feel' alone I'd say I'm up 2.7564% ft of Torque I fully intend on ripping the chip out once the 2E bottom end goes on, stands to reason that a generic map for a 1.8 is not going to perfectly suit a breathed on 2.0 with bvh+272 cam. Will also look into some new injectors like jonny's 'beige' ones.
what happened to 'over-engineering a problem that doesn't exist'?? Remember my adjustable fuel pressure regulator thread? I would still like to know if there could be any benefit from fitting one of those. As i mentioned in that thread, you can pick them up for 30 brand new, and tune them via the gauge on rollers. If larger injectors would help, then a bit more fuel being forced through from the pressure regulator would help too, right? Just think it might be a non-expensive way of stopping the car running lean. I did read a comment about a guy fitting a porsche 944 fuel pressure reg on a 2.0 conversion, which aparrently had good results, thats where i got the idea, although this would be more tunable, allowing you to increase/decrease pressure on rollers to get the best performance. loads of sets of vauxhal injectors on the 'bay, so if you can let me know which model vauxhall they came from rubjonny i'll get bidding!
what about these http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Saab-9000-900...ryZ10416QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem different part number i know, but they flow 214cc/min like the ones you mentioned. any good? just out of interest, what do the standard VAG PB injectors flow?
