Timing 8v TSR 2.0 - No start saga - Head removed - *FIXED*

Discussion in '8-valve' started by carver, Mar 5, 2012.

  1. carver Forum Member

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    Hi all,

    A couple of days ago my car started to judder badly mostly at low throttle and seems to lack any torque, fairly un driveable. I nursed it home and started off by checking the timing, 6 months ago the cam belt slipped due to a loose bottom pulley and put the timing out and it feels similar to how it did then. I don't actually know if the mechanic checked the timing and intermediate shaft when he sorted it I'm pretty sure he whacked the belt on and sorted the bottom pulley and said it ran OK. However I have been running it for months since then and it's power delivery is strange in that there's nothing until 3.5k and after that it pulls ok which I know all points to timing and a proper setup but I haven't had the time to look at it until now, my main aim is to get the timing sorted and then go from there as I'm sure it should driver nicer/quicker than it does. The engine is a TSR Oulton 2.0 8v, running Digifant with a 'K-Star' chip. I believe it has a hydro head although I'm not 100% sure as I have never seen it with the cam cover off. My main question is, do I time it up with the standard punch mark on the pulley? I'm told these engines came with a TSR 102 or 202 cam, depending on head type.

    Here's how things are lined up currently, do we think this might explain the performance issues? No idea where the ignition timing is at as well, the guy I bought it off was messing with the Co screw and other things at the MOT station [:[] and said 'It's never been the same since'. :clap:

    Here's where everything sits at TDC, or there about's I'll take the other two plugs out when I do it to get it more accurate.
    [​IMG]

    As you can see here fair amount a teeth out from the punch mark, there is also a white mark from a previous owner not sure what that's about and why it's so far from the original? [:s]
    [​IMG]
    Finally the rotor arm isn't even close to the notch on the housing..should the notch be pointing at where the #1 spark plug lead goes? If so I need to remove the whole dizzy and reposition it right?
    [​IMG]

    If someone could let me know if I'm ok to time it up to the original markings I'll feel a lot better, I'm well out of practise of messing with cam timings especially with it not being a standard mk2 8v engine.

    Thanks :thumbup:
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2012
  2. milesmk2 Forum Member

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    The first picture (TDC mark) is right, thats the TDC mark on the flywheel. BUT check it is the true TDC by taking out spark plugs 1 or 4 and checking the piston is at the top of its stroke. Ive known of people to put a flywheel back on after a clutch change and they put it on in the wrong place.

    The second picture (cam puly) however you are using the wrong side of the cam pully to time the top end. The mark you want is on the inside face (facing towards the head rather than away from it) which has to line up with the very top of the head where the rocker cover sits.

    As for the third pic (dizzy) it dosnt matter too much if the arm is pointing as the notch as long as the HT leads are in the right order (1, 3, 4, 2) and number 1 is above the arm when the block is at TDC.

    Hope this helps :)
     
  3. carver Forum Member

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    I have checked the mark on the flywheel is right by checking piston #1 and it seems to be spot on.

    I don't think I can actually see that side of my cam pulley as the inner plastic cover is in the way. I found this guide earlier as well which shows the way you explain which is for the CIS engine whatever that is and then shows a picture of mine saying to time it to the OT arrow?

    [​IMG]

    Also not only does my rotor arm not point at the notch, the rotor arm doesn't point at plug #1!
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2012
  4. milesmk2 Forum Member

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    The reason the rotor arm isnt pointing at lead 1 could be that the person who did the timing belt has botched the hell out of it and made it run.

    First thing you wanna do is take that plastic thing off with the OT written on it so you can see the inner face of the cam pulley. You never need to use that OT mark as its not the right mark for the cam timing. Another way to ensure the cam timing is correct is to take the rocker cover off and ensure that the cam lobes for cylinder 1 are pointint in an upwards 'V' direction and at equal angles.

    Next you want to move the leads around on the dizzy cap so that lead 1 is above the rotor arm and then in a clockwise direction have it in the order of 1, 3, 4, 2. This should be extremely close to factory settings, you may need to advance (turn anti-clockwise) or retard (turn clockwise) the dizzy so that it starts. Once you have it started then use a timing gun and the digifant setup guide on here to set the engine up.
     
  5. carver Forum Member

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    Right that's slightly confusing I just saw 'OT' and thought that would be the mark, so I'll set the cam in line with the head at TDC and while I'm at it I think I'll try and sync the intermediate shaft up with the crank marker and get the rotor arm in line with the notch on the dizzy and then rework the HT leads to suit. Then set the ignition timing using the 6deg marker on the flywheel. :thumbup:
     
  6. milesmk2 Forum Member

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    If you've got a timing light with a dial on the back then just use the punch mark, if not you will have to use the diamond shape mark on the flywheel.
     
  7. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    OT is the mark, but only on later cam shaft sprockets. see the picture you linked up you can see what the ot mark on the cam sprocket looks like.

    what it could be is your cam sprocket is a late one but fitted backwards, spin it over while looking on the inside to see if an ot mark becomes visible. if so take it off and flip it round
     
  8. carver Forum Member

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    Cheers rubjonny I was hoping you would pop in actually. I noticed last night that on that picture there is a mark on the pulley 'O_T' so I thought great hopefully I missed that and I'll line it up with the OT mark and then maybe there's one on the inside that will then lines up with the head.

    So had a play around today and there isn't an 'O_T' mark on the outside of the pulley just the punch mark. So I took the top inner plastic cover off and found the inside mark on the cam pulley, which looks to be 1 or 2 teeth from where it should be, I think.

    Here's a pic.

    [​IMG]

    Just realised that the tensioner has two holes for the adjustment tool unlike the old Polos so I need to find something I can use before I can proceed.

    So yeah, the cam pulley has a random punch mark on the outside which doesn't seem to point to anything and a notch on the inner face which is about 1 or 2 teeth from being flush with the rocker.
     
  9. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    the reason for the extra punch marks is the same sprocket is used for the cam and the intermediate shaft, so you're awlays left with a spare mark :)

    yup looks liek you found the OT mark, what i would do next is whip off the rocker cover, then turn it so the cams on #1 are pointing up and away from each other like so -> |\ /|

    then whip off the sprocket and try it both ways till you find your TDC markers. there should always bee the one on the inside face as per 'step 4 CIS' regardless of the age of the engine. its just later ones also have the OT mark on the outside.

    then once you get the sprocket on the right way time everything back up to TDC properly including the dizzy and work from there.
     
  10. carver Forum Member

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    Ah that explain the random punch then! :lol:

    Ok I'll get the rocker cover off and get the cam to that point, I have just had a look all the way round the inner side of the cam and there are no other marks other then the one in the last picture. So no need for me to take the pulley off? I haven't got anything to hold the cam while I undo the bolt so I'm trying to avoid that if possible..

    Also just checked where the rotor arm is now I'm looking at the right mark for the cam and it's just past spark lead #1 so that definitely needs resetting.
     
  11. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    socket extension thru the spokes braced to cylinder head and wrapped in a towel to avoid damaging head surface works ;)

    get it to tdc and see if any of your marks line up on that sprocket, then you can figure out if it'll need flipping round or not
     
  12. carver Forum Member

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    Good stuff, so am I trying to get a mark to line up with with the OT on the inner plastic at TDC as opposed to the inner mark it's using now?
     
  13. nhoj62

    nhoj62 Forum Member

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    you are trying to get the inner mark on the pulley to line up with the top of the head with the #1 piston at tdc and the cam lobes for #1 pointing straight up
     
  14. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    basically you want to set your cam loabes to tdc, then see if either of the marks line up. if not your sprocket is on backwards so flip it round and then see if they line up.

    it doesnt matter when the sprocket was made they will always have the punch mark on the back face as per 'step 4 - cis' above. only the late sprockets have the OT mark as per 'step 4 - digifant' above, so it may or may not have the outer mark.

    if it does have the OT mark thats a bonus as much easier to line up and more accurate
     
  15. carver Forum Member

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    Right, managed to get the dizzy out which was properly seized to the point where it wouldn't even turn in the slightest. So once I managed to get that out I took the tension off the cam belt and was about to move the intermediate shaft into position using the sprocket, however the damn lower inner plastic cover covers up the whole sprocket ([:x]) so I started removing the bolts to remove it to find the last bolt I couldn't reach as I'm working from the top at the side of the road. Do you have to remove the bottom pulleys to remove that plastic? I was hoping I could take the bolts out, bend the cover enough so I could get the sprocket in line and go from there, is that possible? My PAS tensioner is the thing of nightmares so I really, really don't want to have to remove the pulleys and mess about with the PAS tensioner.
     
  16. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    ignorte the intermediate shaft marks, those arnt important. all you do is refit dizzy so when its at TDC the rotor arm lines up to the notch in the edge of the dizzy housing
     
  17. carver Forum Member

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    Couple of questions...

    I have put the cam forward two teeth so that the inner mark is now flush with the top of the head.
    [​IMG]

    Cam looks like this at that point
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Looks right to me but wanting confirmation before I put the rocker cover back on.

    Also the filter gauze on the rocker cover looks to be missing, I'm guessing someone cut it out when they cleaned it and never bothered putting it back in. Will this cause any problems?
    [​IMG]

    And which way does the splash guard go? Open holes cam side?
    [​IMG]

    Thanks :thumbup:
     
  18. carver Forum Member

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    Cant get the dizzy back in for some reason, should it go back in fairly easily? It get's down to the rubber seal and won't go any further [:s].
     
  19. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    yep cam looks fine, if there isnt an ot mark on the outside then you have an early sprocket is all, no big deal just use inner mark.

    splash shield can go either way as long as the rocker will still fit! missing gauze shouldn't be a problem the mk3 golf gti alloy covers dont have them

    dizzy is a git to fit as you have to pop it in lining up the teeth and also you have to get the oil pump slot drive to engage, so it takes a fair bit of fiddling
     
  20. carver Forum Member

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    Thanks a lot, that's all good then I'll spend some time tomorrow getting it back in.

    I was glad to see the cam looks like new anyway, it's always had quite a metallic sound on tick over so I was worried but I think it might have been the timing and the 4 branch amplifying it.
     

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