Fitting a MK4 3.2 VR6 ECU on a MK5 3.2 engine? Read this... On my recent journeys I have been put into contact with folk, who bought an Audi 3.2 V6 or MK5 3.2 VR6 engine for a conversion project, with the intention of using an ECU from an earlier engine, only to tell them, "No it will not work!". They are sometimes baffled and disappointed by my answer, then I get into the whole sensors and cam stuff with them etc. Well one of my hobbies is VW/Audi mapping and as a license holder of EVC's Winols and other expensive mapping tools, I get to see what the majority of the public do not have any knowledge about. I decided to document and share a few reasons why these engines are not compatible with the control system from another era of engine, using the data I look at when attempting to carry out a remap on an engine/car. The first reason is the locking or reference point of the cams. By reference I mean where the vanes of the cams are when there is no oil to move them. The second is the other is the range of adjustment. The third is the cam tracks or base cam maps which are, you guessed it, different! Then there is the diagnostics for what is a plausible reference and what is not. See how much problems can occur just by mixing ECU modules? Outside the cam feature there is the control of the fuel delivery module (the returnless fuel supply in Audi A3 and MK5) and the rate of injection which are pretty different. Cam set point tables for BHE/BFH and BDB/BUB engines. I will focus on the major differences in cam hardware that will stop your conversion from running correctly. A summary of the cam references, maximum adjustment and range is included below, having looking at several calibrations from the Audi A3 3.2 (BDB engine) EOS 3.2, Golf MK5 R32 (BUB engines) and MK1 Audi TT 8N (BHE engine - mechanically the same as the BFH). Final note. In the future, if you plan on purchasing a 3.2 VR6 engine and wish to use the OEM ECU, my suggestion is to ensure it comes with the matching ECU or consider a SEM!
HAHA. I have the number for the dealers of Emerald or DTA products. Our member "sparrow" is the owner of DTA and can advise.
So in a nutshell, keep everything as it came out of the donor car, match engine to correct ecu, don't go switching looms and fuel rails, run a fuel return line if BFH or BHE and stick to single fuel line feed if BDB or BUB. Ive been doing my homework for the last 2 years on installing one of these in to a Mk2. Ive heard of people changing looms, cams adjusters and various sensors to try and get it work, alot of had issues and im entirely not sure if they have ever really resolved. Im assuming some people have just learned to live it. In the end i purchased a complete car and took everything i needed as one unit. Rubjohny Has helped me with the wiring and a few weeks ago i managed to install and get it fired up. Everything has stayed the same apart from the rear lambda sensors. Going to do the chains next then once exhaust is on and i drive it i will report back. Only then is when i can truely say its all ok.
Original plan was to use the early bfh pulleys and run bfh ecu but as toyotec said there are many differences!! I swapped over the pulleys to the bub engine and timing was miles out as there is soon much more movement not the bfh exhaust pulley than the bub exhaust pulley so I'm guessing camshaft was different too, I have also tried comparing the early bfh and bub vvt housings and the timing marks are also different! After reading a post a few years ago from 'mushy 16' he ran his bub on the std aue management and suffered a bit of hesitation around 3k, for what I'm using the car for I can live with this, until funds allow standalone management upgrade!!
Thats exactly what ive done. now to get these faults rectified and the rest coded out. Address 01: Engine Labels: 022-906-032-BDB.lbl Control Module Part Number: 022 906 032 CA HW: Bas isX 3 Component and/or Version: MOTRONIC ME7.1.1 5629 Software Coding: 0000172 Work Shop Code: WSC 06435 000 00000 VCID: 4C894167B6CBE262B398925-8018 19 Faults Found: 18058 - Powertrain Data Bus P1650 - 004 - Missing Message from Instrument Cluster = CODE OUT 18058 - Powertrain Data Bus P1650 - 008 - Missing Message from Instrument Cluster = CODE OUT 18044 - Powertrain Data Bus P1636 - 008 - Missing Message from Airbag Controller = CODE OUT 18036 - Powertrain Data Bus P1628 - 008 - Missing Message from Steering Angle Sensor = CODE OUT 18043 - Powertrain Data Bus P1635 - 008 - Missing Message from A/C Controller = CODE OUT 18057 - Powertrain Data Bus P1649 - 008 - Missing Message from ABS Controller = CODE OUT 18057 - Powertrain Data Bus P1649 - 008 - Missing Message from ABS Controller = CODE OUT 18025 - Glow Plug Pre-Heat Indicator (K29) P1617 - 001 - Open or Short to Ground = RECTIFY 17834 - EVAP Purge Valve (N80) P1426 - 004 - Open Circuit - MIL ON = CODE OUT 17841 - Secondary Air Pump Relay (J299) P1433 - 004 - Open Circuit - MIL ON = CODE OUT 17840 - Secondary Air Injection Solenoid Valve (N112) P1432 - 004 - Open Circuit - MIL ON = CODE OUT 18335 - Relay for Aux Coolant Pump (J496) P1927 - 004 - Open Circuit = RECTIFY WITH RELAY 16440 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor B2 S2: Heating Circuit P0056 - 004 - Malfunction / Open Circuit - MIL ON = CODE OUT 16420 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor B1 S2: Heating Circuit P0036 - 004 - Malfunction / Open Circuit - MIL ON = CODE OUT 18080 - Coolant Fan Control 1 P1672 - 004 - Open or Short to Ground - Intermittent - MIL ON = Not sure if this can be used to trigger a fan via a relay, will check and report back. 17522 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor; B1 S2 P1114 - 004 - Internal Resistance too High = CODE OUT 17548 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor; B2 S2 P1140 - 004 - Internal Resistance too High = CODE OUT 16414 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor B1 S1: Heating Circuit P0030 - 004 - Malfunction / Open Circuit - MIL ON = RECTIFY, Wideband lambda not connected during scan 16434 - Oxygen (Lambda) Sensor B2 S1: Heating Circuit P0050 - 004 - Malfunction / Open Circuit - MIL ON = RECTIFY, Wideband lambda not connected during scan Should be ok if i can get these all sorted.
The ECU will run with the above codes. A new map can be created to turn off the expected signal from CMS lambda on bank 1 and 2. Turn off the CMS heats, and stub out the expected messages from the CAN bus which in your conversion is not there.
Aaah thats a good bit of info, So in theory once its had a map i should have a fault free engine/ecu. Ive already fired up the car and it ran pretty much perfect in situ, although yet to do a road test. Need to get a few more things sorted. Mainly running gear and brakes. Im under the assumption that i can use a mk4 petrol DBW pedal and just change over the wiring from the A3 pedal as the connector is different. Only reason for changing is due to installation, The mk4 pedal is a much more better fit in the mk2 as opposed to the big lumpy A3 pedal. Im uncertain if this will give me problems but by comparing both wiring diagrams they look identical in terms off function. Wont know until i try it.
Hi Toyotec, Would you be able to post up the VVT cam timing maps for both platforms (inlet and exhaust) Link (below) is the only info I've been able to source on the topic :- http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4051402-24v-VVT-Mapping Cheers
The info in that post hardly touched the basis for the cam track in a post 2001 twin vvt 24v engine. As there is complex logic behind the cam track and the multiple cam tables based on various states of engine operation, because of countless hours spent in car tuning and understanding the feature, it is not something that I am willing to share at this time.
Great thread!! Don't forget to mentionned that SEM will absolutly support PWM to corraetly manage VVT.
Hello i'm new in this forum, i've already talked with Toyotec elsewhere and read his topic for S3 8L swap with vr6 but... reading too late, me and my friend we are faceing in a generation problem...and we have spent already too much money by tuned engine...i need to recap a bit to see if we can fix this cross generation problem now at the beginning of 2020 My side , i'm swapping my S3 8L with a VR6 BUB engine with loom and ecu. Reading schematics i notice a lot of problems with other modules and pins , becouse BUB is other ECU generation so will be problem with can bus, abs, haldex gen2 etc...so no good solution for a clean and fully worked swap. My BUB is already closed tuned and done turbo...so i need to use this engine block. In the meanwhile after reading more info between generation etc...i've bought a BHE engine (to get VVT things) with loom and ecu to use in my S3 8L to have all modules and sensors ok. My question is ... Also today, is impossible to run clean and well a BUB engine with VVT and cams sensors from BHE with his BHE loom and ecu? Engine block and head are the same ? only oil cap change? Also my friend with a TT MK2 BUB engine have this problems because he has full tuned a BHE engine with everything for 800-900hp... Thanks in advance to everyone lose his time to help us
J'ai dû faire cette adaptation une fois dans le passé. S3 8l avec moteur Mk5 R32 => BUB. L'adaptation s'est plutôt bien passée. Dommage d'avoir acheté un autre moteur car après avoir déplacé quelques brochesdans différentes connexion et du fil pour les informations manquantes sur le faisceau de Mk5, le moteur a démarré avec le BUB ECU bien sûr. La pédale doit être celle du Mk5. Les informations de vitesse doivent être prises avec vagcom dans l'unité de commande abs, sauf si vous conservez la boîte de vitesses v6 24s avant 2005. En tout cas, beaucoup de courage pour ce nouveau moteur.
My idea is to not use engine harness and ecu of BUB engine...but use: - BUB engine block and head - BHE VVT gears and cover - BHE exhaust cam - BHE cams sensors - BHE engine harness - BHE ECU For gearbox i will use a DQ250 from R32 MK5 ...but as i have done in my Seat Leon MK1 DSG ... i will use a control module to get vsignal etc... in a right way.
You can put the BUB (engine and ECU )in your S3 8L with no difficult. Problems comes when you want to use engine with an different ECU. In fact, ECU was appaired with VVT. In reality, the real prblem isn't the vvt itself but the cams (exhaust and intake ) sensors spot on VVT. Solutions: 1/ using BUB+mk4 harness+ BUB ECU+ MK5 Pedal==> some electricals adaptation ….never forget the Gateway if you want to log on ECU 2/using BUB with BHE harness +BHE cams & VVT & ECU & sensors ==> n attnNtion BHE's compression ratio is bigger than BUB one. For your gearbox dq250, you need VSS by canbus to make it work ==> VSS signal is present in ABS BLOC.Use this signal to make operate your DQ250
Hi daffe. When I write these threads, I try to include as much information for the reader as I can. I also use references from source as well as my own experience from calibrating OE ECUs and SEMs and having access to the settings. The aim is to create archived information to counter the misinformation that exists on many social media sites. Most SEMs ( by SEM I mean Standalone Engine Management) of a certain price range, either do not use a cylinder recognition sensor, or have a crude means of cam control via PWM of the adjustment solenoids, hence my comment, "In the future, if you plan on purchasing a 3.2 VR6 engine and wish to use the OEM ECU, my suggestion is to ensure it comes with the matching ECU or consider a SEM!"
hello toyotec, i completly agree with, you're thread is a big spot of informations about 24v management. This subject interest me a lot because, i make some mods on my mk2 R32 BFH and i try to hit maximal potential. let me send you a PM about it....if you have 2 minutes.
