vw spiess f3 engine in Ireland

Discussion in '8-valve' started by Brian.G, Nov 29, 2010.

  1. romaingirardlamamy

    romaingirardlamamy Forum Member

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    Thanks for the link HPR
    The oettinger head are renown for there porosity especially the early one
    And are prone to cracks
    I even thought of ceramic coating the combustion and exhaust port
    I got to get in touch with them

    I had a friend who was working for an engine development company in france
    And they had in hand the renault diesel engine for the kangoo for the paris dakar
    And they were polishing the water way
     
  2. HPR

    HPR Administrator Admin

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    someone told me about untreated alloy oilsumps that were like coffee filters..
     
  3. Brian.G

    Brian.G Forum Member

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    Indeed they are:thumbup: My link above is for treating such items, where they are not that critical, like the head waterways.
     
  4. romaingirardlamamy

    romaingirardlamamy Forum Member

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    Where I used to work back home
    We Use to fit S14 m3 engine in bmw compact
    We were having casted new engine mount to have the engine as back as possible
    and bespoke sump with extras capacity and leaving extra room to not having it touching due to the new mount
    Well those sump were a real pain 7 out of 10 would leak
    We use some sort of by composite coating which would also make the inside of the sump pretty smooth
    But never had no problem with my 1981 two part oettinger sump
    With no treatment ???
    Might be a difference in casting way
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2010
  5. Mike_H Forum Addict

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    The Judd/Brabham one I've seen was based on a 1600 block.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2013
  6. HPR

    HPR Administrator Admin

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    Judd/ Brabham/ Engine Developments , its all the same engine
    1984 - official output was 159-162 hp
    we got one on the dyno @ judd and gave 156 hp

    Spiess had electronic injection from 1984 on / ircc 164 hp and over the years climbed to about 176 -180 hp
    VWM would not work with Spiess at the time for some reason...
    Now Spiess does ALL engine development/ manufacturing/ engine builds for VWM
    ( F3 and rally raid )

    CR was about 14/1 and climbed over the years...
    one F3 engine was on nearly 17/1 (Swindon / non VW engine )
     
  7. Brian.G

    Brian.G Forum Member

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    Pictures, more to follow, very interesting, Ill post them first, talking later, :thumbup:

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    More tomorrow hopefully:thumbup:
     
  8. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    Nice pictures Brian :clap:

    Liner inserts? Deck cooling there, a la BTCC blocks.

    Interesting the later style ~DX block is used with the extra oil drain hole, but blocked off. Larger crankcase space needed for stroke, or a mix & match bitsa engine?

    Crank looks awesome and valve lift rather large :thumbup:
     
  9. Brian.G

    Brian.G Forum Member

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    There is inserts too, notice the interesting slits between them to allow water across them right up to the top. Very clever. I have told him where I want more photos take of, so lets wait. He does stress these are inserts, and not the deck machine tricking the eye. 6 counter crank, slugged and bored. Fancy! Original waterpump, snout machined to accept toothed pulley and keep offset/loads less Im guessing. Frost plug missing from pump strangely. Serious chewing gum for the eyes!
    Stick Club Gti on them if you wish, I dont mind, its all good.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2010
  10. HPR

    HPR Administrator Admin

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    :thumbup:

    Always worth to have a look on stuff like this !

    Intermediate shaft is on roller bearings
     
  11. danster Forum Addict

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    Interesting to see the crank with the counterweights located in one larger web compared to the usual two. A bit like this one I posted the pic of a while back.

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    Also, the pistons appear to have a flatish crown, that along with the flat head means very little shape for combustion chamber and swirl.
    I think the old Ford OHV crossflow tuning folks did this at some point too, possibly called "hammer head" or something?
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2010
  12. Brookster

    Brookster Paid Member Paid Member

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    To increase compression and reduce heat & detonation under high crompression (14:1) :thumbup:
     
  13. romaingirardlamamy

    romaingirardlamamy Forum Member

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    really really nice piece off kit
    the shoot of the top of the block really make me wonder if the btcc block is not sleeved too

    is the intermediate shaft really on roller bearing ?
    I thought of that some time ago

    it s crazy flat piston flat head ..... where is the sqhish area???

    the crank is such a nice piece drilled and sleeved
    only four counter weight ..... those engine must have a rebuilt period pretty short

    I dont know if it s been long time I havent seen a 1.6 head but does the head casting
    look like an ordinary gti head???
     
  14. Brian.G

    Brian.G Forum Member

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    It could be on rollers. No impact loads exist there as they would in a relatively slow spinning crank(as opposed to two stroke), which is what rules them out for crank bearings in this type of engine. The needles would leave impact prints on crank journal. Needle rollers are not quite parallel either but slightly 'fat' in the middle, which allows for any alignment issues, the ends of rollers wont dig in.

    There is no squish pads, see Dansters post:thumbup:

    Agreed on crank, some bending stresses would be present,(confirmed with this type crank by a few sources)

    He came back to me and said ''The head and valves look to be ok'':o
    And he wants 800euro for it, for that reason, Im out.

    Ill post rest of pics once I get them, we finished on good terms after money was talked.

    Thats all for now:thumbup:

    BG
     
  15. Brian.G

    Brian.G Forum Member

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    Two more photos thanks to HPR:thumbup: Thanks again for sharing with me:clap:

    The intermediate shaft in question, ball-bearings, as opposed to rollers as above. Techinal wording was lost in translating Im guessing:thumbup:

    From looking at a lot of race engine schematics and tech design notes my opinion for them using ball bearings is this>
    Many engine designers state which shaftings are to get "priority oiling" The crank and cams being the two very important ones. Using ball-bearings in this area, and therefore doing away with the intermediate shells, and oil gallery's (they get blocked when you insert shaft(bearings) would reduce the risk of the intermediate shells perhaps taking oil pressure, or needing it, away from the "priority oiling shafts" as noted by the designer.:thumbup:

    Thats my thinking anyway.

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    BG
     
  16. HPR

    HPR Administrator Admin

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    yes, picking the wrong word...translating error

    indeed keeping oilpressure / flow low and to get minimal friction... every hp count....
     
  17. Neal H Forum Member

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    Just a quick one, I have a Bertils dry sump system. Very similar to the above pictures, but no roller bearings...
     
  18. Brian.G

    Brian.G Forum Member

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    More pictures:thumbup:

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    Elbow welded to pump housing,

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    The clutch setup, notice the pickups are allen bolts with the heads ground flat/slight wedge(took me a while to figure out what they actually used from the picture) They also lie as close to the edge as possible, and at a fairly large diameter, unlike what is commonly done. This would ensure a more accurate crank angle reading.:thumbup:

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    Close-up

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    Piston/rod,

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    Interesting stuff, lot can be learnt I feel from these few pictures:thumbup:

    BG
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2010
  19. A.N. Other Banned after significant club disruption Dec 5th 2

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    Interesting crank sensor, but the clutch looks suited to a non-VW bellhousing. Would you agree? Sticks out pretty far.

    Any word on rod lengths and pin position / compression height. That would be really insightful to map back across to the 16v data.
     
  20. Brian.G

    Brian.G Forum Member

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    Does stick out quiet a bit, Ill scale off pics later to try get a size. I wonder just what boxes they use? 016 Audi type setup, or a T5 style box?

    Ill try find sizes you mentioned, leave it with me:thumbup:

    BG
     

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