16V Lysholm

Took my car down to Emerald to get the map sorted. What a great bunch of people they are. John did the mapping under the watchful eye of Dave Walker. They have done a superb job, it now idles, is smooth to drive, runs cooler, uses less fuel and can be driven in a docile manner or in a passenger grabs the door handle frenzy :-)

It made 226.9bhp@7k and 192lbft torque, translated to the road it feels nice and progressive and very torquey. Here is the power plot from the day:


I have a couple of issues with this build:
(1) The Lysholm has a 53mm pulley and I am only seeing 10psi boost, it does reach this from about 2000rpm and remains fairly constant. I expected anything up to 17psi. I have checked and double checked for boost leaks. The belt is not slipping either. So it is either losing it past the pistons or maybe it is just not capable of creating that much pressure through the 16V setup.
(2) It uses oil, about 1 litre every 250 miles :-( No smoke, even at start up, no leaks and no oil in the breather/separator tank. So it has to be burning it as part of the combustion process, there is soot on the tailpipe that pretty much confirms this. I think that (1) and (2) are probably related !! The engihe has about 3000 miles on it now.

I am going to perform a leak down test in a couple of weeks to see how much is leaking past the rings and valves. The Pistons are 83mm items from Bahn Brenner (actually they are Ross Racing Pistons). The guys that bored the block gave a 0.006" piston clearance as per the spec sheet for a blown engine. Perhaps the bore was not done well or the rings just failed to seat properly - not sure, bUt I can see a winter head off to allow some measurements to be taken.

I have bought my sprint tickets for GTI International for the the Sunday, time to have a bit of fun !!

This is how the engine bay looks now:


and the car itself:

 

Not bad for 10psi mine made205bhp and 210ftlb on a ABF +m45 eaton combo running 9 psi your car looks stunning ! Am also at inters on sunday would love a closer look

 

That does sound like alot of oil use. Did you bed the rings in properly with cheapo oil? What do the plugs look like? A compression check should give you an idea.

 

Come and say hi tommy16v and thanks for the comment !! I will park up on the Mk1 Golf Owners Club pitch.
Having said that you will hear me first :-)

Yes the rings were bedded in properly tshirt2k. Well I was told there were and I have no reason to believe that they were not. Could be just one of those things that the rings did not take well to the bores, or perhaps a broken oil scraper ? Will do a compression and leak down test in a couple of weeks though. Not had the plugs out, will check them at the same time.

Thanks cerips that confirms what Johnny Betz of Bahn Brenner told me.

 

If the cams are updated NASP items the aircharge would be blown through on overlap you would have less pressure in the inlet manifold.
You could play around with the cams to increase the trapping efficiency at the expense of top end performance. Or just simply revert to stock items.

Your torque curve, assuming Dave's machine was operated correctly, looks very similar to a car that I calibrated years ago, however with a more inefficient Eaton M62 charger from a Merc R170, running a modest 10-12 PSI.
The engine that generated the plot below was a bone stock ABF with stock cam timing and stack gaskets to reduce compression/det limit.

 

Very similar figures :-) especially with 10psi
Cams are standard kr items.

It feels great on the road and I guess thats what matters :-)

But I know I won't rest until I find where the boost is being lost and the oil is going !!

 

The plots are similar in shape yes.

Do you have a vernier fitted?
Also does your charger have an oil feed?

 

No vernier fitted.

The charger has an oil feed, the same as the G60 had. The Lysholm has two drains, one the original G60 and a second to te sump.

 

May need the vernier to mess about the cam phasing a bit.

If the engine is in good health after a leak down check, then like the G6O charger, the oil consumption maybe charger related

 

I might look into fine tuning the cams later.

Can't see the oil loss being related to the charger, there is no oil in the boost pipes and the Lysholm does not have a boost return pipe like the G60. Also the block is vented to atmosphere via an oil seperator tank and not back into the inlet.

 

Always nice to see another supercharger 16v motor mate!
Looking at your plots hp and torque dip at 5.9k at which point boost drop is dipping off to 9psi which looks like a small amount of belt slip.
I see that you went with a T/B before the charger setup, I take it to keep noise down? but this setup does mean the charger has to work harder to take air in which in turn pushes up air temps, also maybe look at monting the airfilter near the front of the car.
The long run inlet manifold doesn't help air speed at high CFM's/rpm,(boost going up, which in your case isn't happening, again showing you could have belt slip) A short S2 or 1.8t/16v manifold works very well.
Boost: I see from the top of your plots that your engine is a 1.9? Toyo's plots is of a 2.0 ABF, both engines are boosting around the 10psi mark. The ABF engine'd car which I had a hand in making uses a m62 eaton with a 70mm pulley and std crank pulley 140mm = 2:1 and 14000 rpm @ 7k your Lysholm charger which is bigger than the m62 so ie moves more air at the same rpm but your pulley is 53mm = 2.6:1 which is 18200rpm at 7K plus your engine is 100cc smaller.
If that much air was 'blow by' past the rings than Dave and co would of heard the engine knock as the air/fuel mix around the sides of the Pistons burning would be pushing the Pistons into the walls making a knock/Piston slap noise, plus loads of oil would be pushed out of the engine breather pipes.
Boost leak, belt slip or cam timing.
Hope this helps.

 

Cheers eatonmk2, it has been a labour or love over the last few years !!

The belt was quite loose and I have since fitted a shorter belt so I am pretty sure that it is not slipping now. Dave actually sprayed some stuff to see if the belt was slipping and they came to the conclusion that it was not.

My mistake on the pulley size it is 55mm not 53mm, so the charger will spin a little slower at 7k, still slightly above spec but then it does not spend all its time at such high revs.

Yes the throttle body is there to reduce the whine at lower speeds and idle otherwise the charger sees full air all of the time, I heard one running like this and it was a bit too much.
The plan is to get the air filter closer to the front, but there is not much room and I do not want to relocate the battery with all the voltage drop pain that that brings.

I am attached to my 16V Scirocco inlet !! Took me hours to get it that shiny !! I hear what you are saying, and it may be that the setup will no see any more than a few psi more once I have discovered where the oil is going.

The engine does not knock at all and the pistons have never made a slapping noise, not even from a cold startup where the piston expansion is at its least. But it is still getting through the oil, it has to be going somewhere - hopefully the leak down test will give me a clue !!

Boost leak - there may still be, but I cannot find it or hear it.
Belt slip - pretty sure that it is not slipping now.
Cam timing - not something I had considered before you guys mentioned it. As far as I know they are standard cams, but it is definately something to check and perhaps a vernier pulley for some fine tuning.

Thanks for your interest.

 

How have you tested for boost leaks. Through TB? Or charger output? What pressure? I had major problems with boost leaks. Also had to get it remapped because it was mapped with leaks. Jubilee clips aren't the best for sealing pipes.

Are those compressor maps relavent to your charger? The NOS ones seem to have a different Part no

 

I have a test kit, one fits into the pipe when it is removed off the charger output and the other to just after the last flexi output before the plenum. There is a gauge on one side and a tyre valve on the other. I just pumped up to 20psi and found no leaks.

Jubilee clips are fine as long as you have bumps in your metal hoses.

Yea those pressure maps look like what I got with my charger, 1.2l displacement.

 

I've used KR cams in 9a's and ABF's eaton engine's and I didn't like them, the milder 9a inlet cam works well.

Does your breather system fill up quickly?

 

It doesn't fill up at all, well apart from water that condenses.

My block is a 1H one, the Rallye 8V one, I made a breather plate for it.

I believe that the exhaust cams are all the same, just the inlet that varies. Do you know what the differences are ?

 

Yep the 9a inlet cam is milder dude, less over lap.

So no smoke and the breather isn't filling up then that doesn't point to the rings being the issue of the oil loss or boost loss.

 

Exhaust cams for 027E and 051 heads are the same yes.
The 9A/vw16v inlet cam specs for 051103373 head castings can be found here, a thread that you did post in.
The inlet cam on the 136PS 9A and 127PS PL is part number 027 109 021AL.
The opening duration of the cam is 200CA from .50mm. It also has less lift than a KR unit.
I am not convinced though that changing the inlet camshaft to a milder one would be the way to go based on the ABF camsets are more aggressive and are used in both Turbo and Supercharged applications. I also have a vehicle with a G60 16v limited engine + '268' Schrick NASP cams and OE plenum that I have had up to 1.2bar with the appropriate pulley.

I still think cam timing that can shift the current intake position advanced by a couple degrees to a position of lower overlap and later intake opening can help play around with the torque curve a bit.
The short intake system helps with response and if anything lowers the air charge resistance and density meaning less boost but more cylinder filling. Unless there is a leak then this effect means very little to you at this stage.
And has been suggested check your pulley ratio.
One note. The picture I put of of MattB 16v K was just to compare plot shapes not numbers. You would need another exercise to compare quantities.
I may be up for arranging a supercharged dyno day soon. If you get the car working by then then it would be a great time to pop down.

 

Guy called 'supercharged16v' off ed38 posted saying he sees 21psi
http://www.edition38.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=447742&st=20

Eaton m62(1,000cc) geared at 2:1 = 14000rpm which will be moving 14000 liters of air
Lysholm(1,200cc) geared at 2.55:1 = 17850rm which is................... 21420 liters of air

 

Cheers Toyotec - I might just take you up on being part of that.
Ah yes I do remember posting on that one now - thanks for the link.

My pulley ratio is 5.5":55mm or 2.54:1
So 7K = 17,780rpm

1.2bar is about 17psi which is what I expected.

21psi does seem a little high and outside what Lysholm say it can do - would be interesting to see more of how he achieved it.

Leak down test is my next step - the use of oil has got to be something to do with it...

Away now for a week - so will update on my return.