Another ABF non starter: Help please deciphering Vagcom data...

Discussion in 'Engines' started by Jon Olds, Apr 11, 2014.

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  1. tshirt2k

    tshirt2k Forum Junkie

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    Are you saying pin codes? As in lost the key matching. Or the adaption from immo box to ecu?
     
    tshirt2k, Apr 23, 2014
    #41
  2. JON OLDS

    Jon Olds Forum Junkie

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    So the ebay set with the brown end is the earlier one, and the all black ones are the later ones, if I understand correctly. Anybody got a connector to suit the brown one. Long shot, but may as well ask.
    Earlier brown ended 96-98 one doesn't have a 'zapper' type key, is that correct?

    I am far from a vagcom expert, and haven't delved into reading key codes and anything remotely clever. I also need to spend some money buying a newer USB based copy, if anybody can make some recommendations. The lead I have bought has also just arrived (like xmas today..) Its a snazzy turquoise colour marked OBD2 and VGA K+ CAN commander full 1.4.

    I would like to try and read codes etc, and understand further what this is all about, if someone can post up a link or two, that would be appreciated. Just started reading the Ross-tech site, lots of good info there..
    Jon
     
    Jon Olds, Apr 23, 2014
    #42
  3. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    as in lost match between immob box and the chip, im not 100% sure if this does indeed happen or not, just a case of one abf i have worked on has lost its chip match with the immob box after being stripped down for a conversion. and the fact jon has 3 boxes which dont work (assumign its chip->immob box lost problem and not something else) makes me think maybe it is possible. as i say the later ones have an extra live feed which the earlier ones dont have, i cant think of any other reason why they would need it?

    mk3 golfs pre-98 all use plain keys with no buttons in, i assume all seat same but i dont really know. its not the key thats important though its the chip inside :)

    what I use to read the PIN from these seperate immb boxes is a vag-tacho cable, its not the same as a vagcom cable. you need to have a matched key in the ignition before it will let you, so if it tells you access denied then you know the chip is no longer matched. not sure if the one you have will work with vag-tacho?

    I dont know if can commander will work with the seperate immobiliser boxes, certainly the copy i have doesnt seem to have an option for them and i had no luck connecting but then maybe it didnt like the cable. I havent really fiddled with it much unfortunatly
     
    rubjonny, Apr 23, 2014
    #43
  4. tshirt2k

    tshirt2k Forum Junkie

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    Well I took the immo box and chip off mine'97 ABF. Had it in the garage a while before I put it on a '96 TDi car. Had to match it to the ecu but it started fine.

    You do need to make sure the keys are the right ones that come with the boxes.
     
    tshirt2k, Apr 23, 2014
    #44
  5. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    97 is before the changeover afaik, was it deffo the later type with large square plug and not the early type with the rounded plug?

    as i say this abf i worked on everything came out of a running donor but i dont know how long it was off. got nowhere trying to pull the pin out of it so assumed it lost its code, though it may have just packed in who knows

    edit: just double checked with ETKA, the later type 6n0953257 was never listed for the MK3 golf, only Cabrio 98 on, polo and SEAT models. the early type is 1H0 953 257 B
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2014
    rubjonny, Apr 23, 2014
    #45
  6. JON OLDS

    Jon Olds Forum Junkie

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    I now have four sets of ECU/etc. Not sure which work and which don't. They may all be fine. The problem may be elsewhere. Just had another crank and I have a healthy looking spark, but easy start does get it running...
    Jon
     
    Jon Olds, Apr 23, 2014
    #46
  7. JON OLDS

    Jon Olds Forum Junkie

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    that should have said doesn't get it running, seems to cough (attempt to fire every 3 to 5 crank rotations)
    Jon
     
    Jon Olds, Apr 23, 2014
    #47
  8. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    hmm, immobiliser fault would still allow the car to fire at least. if you scan the immob box for codes it'll tell you why the immobiliser is kicking in.

    do you have a good steady spark from all 4 plugs while its cranking? did you manage to sort the TPS wiring as if it doesnt respond to throttle inputs then something isnt right with that, as said before the wiring to the tps likes to bake hard behind the inlet and crack up.
     
    rubjonny, Apr 23, 2014
    #48
  9. tshirt2k

    tshirt2k Forum Junkie

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    Going back a bit regarding coil. This is how you test. Just for ref. a bad coil caused me some issues. I had spark but I also had low resistances. Changed for a could with higher resistances and running was transformed and cured starting issues. Need to eliminate everything :thumbup:
    Main measurement was between 15 and HT. has to be above 2.5kohms. Never seen one near 3-4k even new.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    tshirt2k, Apr 23, 2014
    #49
  10. JON OLDS

    Jon Olds Forum Junkie

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    excellent, will check this this morning.
    I have three coils, two of which are new
    Jon
     
    Jon Olds, Apr 24, 2014
    #50
  11. JON OLDS

    Jon Olds Forum Junkie

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    Just cleared the decks to have another go at this. Did some more tonight;
    Compressions : quick squirt 150-200 psi. As expected
    Four known good racer plugs, cordy ones run fine in racer. Not plugs. Deffo
    New earth lead from head to coil. Precaution
    Cleaned coil earths. Precaution
    Checked injectors squirt against paper during crank. As expected.
    Scoped the crank sensor output downstream of the connector during crank. Nice 10V pk-pk square wave. As hoped.
    12V to black coil wire. 1 ohm max from brown to earth. As expected/
    Sometimes get a spark at all four plugs in sequence, sometimes not
    Thinking coil trouble??????????????
    Jon
     
    Jon Olds, May 12, 2014
    #51
  12. tshirt2k

    tshirt2k Forum Junkie

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    I did say check coils a while back ;)
     
    tshirt2k, May 12, 2014
    #52
  13. JON OLDS

    Jon Olds Forum Junkie

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    Yeah, I know.............I have had three different ones on, two of which were new, but it still looks like a coil issue. Taking the whole luminition optronic/dizzy/coil system off my 16v racer is an option
    Ta
    Jon
     
    Jon Olds, May 12, 2014
    #53
  14. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    another option is mk3 coil system -> bin fit mk1/2 golf electronic ignition system.

    for this you need a later mk1/2 style coil with pin in the king lead hole same as mk3 coil, plus a TCI unit and the wiring loom in between. any mk1/2 with electronic ignition will have the parts you need, just check coil type and that the tci has its heatsink as mk1 type are separate.

    then its a case of chop mk3 coil plug off, bin brown wire, crimp a spade to black wire and plug it to the coil +ve. keep green/red to 1 side. run the tci pin 4 to coil +ve, pin 1 to -ve, pin 2 to battery earth and pin 6 to the mk3 coil green/red wire. any spare tci wires can be binned
     
    rubjonny, May 13, 2014
    #54
  15. JON OLDS

    Jon Olds Forum Junkie

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    Fantastic. I have mk1 gti 8v looms and ign amps. What does TCI mean?
    Dug a coil with a separate amp and 3 pin big spade connector out of the box last night, from a 9A I think. Couldn't find out which pin was which. Any ideas or links? This would be simpler agin than the mk1/2 route, if it works
    Jon
     
    Jon Olds, May 13, 2014
    #55
  16. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    thats the spark unit in the scuttle, 7 pin unit :)

    the 9a coil is a straight swap for the abf one i think? pins 1 and 3 are swapped compared to mk3 plug so:
    1 ign live
    2 ecu trigger
    3 earth
     
    rubjonny, May 14, 2014
    #56
  17. JON OLDS

    Jon Olds Forum Junkie

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    this is different to what I read elsewhere;

    3 black ign 12v
    2 ecu sig
    1 brown earth

    Maybe your wiring is right as I didn't get a spark wired up last night in a hurry, in the semi dark
    thanks for your help
    Jon
     
    Jon Olds, May 14, 2014
    #57
  18. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    both my mitchel and some other random foreign 9a diagram agree with what i wrote above, the live pin on the plug should have continuity to the live terminal on the coil if that helps :)
     
    rubjonny, May 15, 2014
    #58
  19. JON OLDS

    Jon Olds Forum Junkie

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    comments always helpful.
    I wired the mk1 gti 8v system , as you suggested. Similar results, a few half decent sparks, then nothing. So that pretty much rules it out as a coil and/or ignition amp problem.
    Also tried separate 12v feeds and separate earths, so tha car dizzy wirng isn't suspect. Point to pointed the coil
    signal wire
    out of the ecu: no issues.
    Next I'm thinking of fitting a KR dizzy (fixed timing: no mech advance) and using the signal output from this to the mk1 ign amp and coil. That way I will have fixed ignition without any processing within the ECU. If it fires and runs, then I am back to fitting crank sensor, probably
    Jon
     
    Jon Olds, May 15, 2014
    #59
    Gökay likes this.
  20. JON OLDS

    Jon Olds Forum Junkie

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    While stripping the abf dizzy out I noticed one of the wires inside was earthing out as the rotor disc rotated. Ah ha.
    s/h breakers yard dizzy (one window type) and I now have a trying to start engine, which fires repeatedly.
    Another s/h abf coil fitted also...
    Think a tow will fire it up
    Jon
     
    Jon Olds, May 16, 2014
    #60
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