Budget ABF race engine build advice please

Discussion in '16-valve' started by Bomber604, Oct 5, 2019.

  1. Bomber604

    Bomber604 Forum Member

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    As some of you may recall, I was quite successful racing an 8v MK2 in the heyday of the Golf GTi championship. After selling my 8v championship winning car in 2014 I've done a bit of RWD racing in a BMW, a bit of hillclimbing in a Clio172 but more recently not racing at all due to budget constraints caused by having a daughter (!) I have recently received the blessing of my better half to go racing again & bought one of my old competitors MK2 championship 8v cars that has been dry stored since a shunt at Snetterton in 2012. I plan to re-shell it over the winter into a significantly lightened shell with the target of a sub 800kg finished car.
    As well as adding lightness, I aim to give is significantly more power in the form of a well put together ABF on (bike) bodies.
    I have a very experienced race engine builder ready to do the work but he's not a VW guy. His main bread & butter is ford Cosworth & Duratec engines so before we steam in I thought I would ask the collective wisdom here the best path to go down for good power & torque without having to take out a sizable mortgage.
    My initial thoughts are:
    Man in the shed head
    Newman cams (spec?)
    Steel rods
    Forged pistons (overbore?)
    Properly blueprinted & balanced bottom end
    Bike throttle bodies (which ones?)
    Stand alone ecu (which one?)
    Hoping for 230bhp (ish)
    Any advice greatfully received.
     
  2. Jon Olds Forum Junkie

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    Budget? (is there such a thing?) , steel rods necessary? I'd rather have a VW rod than an unknown pretty ebay one. Arrow, Farndon yes, but only if you going full spec, high rpm.
    Lots of compression? Yes.
    You will save a couple hundred on the bike throttle bodies, compared to jenveys, not a lot, in a 3 to 4K engine.
    Other bits which will eat your budget. Two cam adjustable wheels. Valve springs and retainers, mapping, engine harness, exhaust, proper clutch, matching gearbox/LSD, throttle linkage, air filtration/inlet tract, machining work (shocked how much this has seemed to have jumped to in the last few years)
    Probably not hugely helpful.
    First budget saving will be to keep the std valve springs and retainers and choose cams appropriately.....and in my opinion use the standard rods also..
    But that's possibly just me..
    Jon
     
  3. Jon Olds Forum Junkie

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    Oh, and a proper sump, oil cooler etc etc
     
  4. Tristan Forum Junkie

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    Second what Jon said re rods, the vw ones are very strong.
    SEAT did lighter retainers than VW iirc.
    The Ecu, aside from cheapest, decide who's mapping it and what they work with. Hard to look past DTA (Alex the boss is a mk2 enthusiast) or Omex.
     
  5. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    My 2 p?

    1) What race series do you plan on racing in?

    2) What power to weight allowed?

    3) ABF engine mods for what expected measured power and torque or expected acceleration is required? * There is 230 bhp @ 8300 rpm or 230 bhp @ 7200 rpm. Those are two different beasts of engine.

    4) What range of usable engine speed is required.

    5) Gearbox durability, FDR and gear spacing considerations.

    6) Bike throttles? Why?

    7) All stage cylinder head. Yes, but there are other options, such as "Hotgolf" Gas N Gears (Wales), CTM performance ( Romford, London) and even JMR (South West).
    Cams would be based on suggestions 1 to 5 and chosen CR. Engine builder to advise on valve spring pressure and type of porting.

    8) Blue printed short engine - Internals depends on 1 to 5. Engine builder to advise on internals. See suggested list.

    9) ECU to control the lot, depends on how much data you plan to log, in addition to controlling the engine and any extra features. SO DTA S60, Omex 600, Emerald K6, are the usual suspects.
    Best to work with what your tuner or you are conformable with.

    It does help to work with an engine builder who understands VW engines and can deliver all the requirements in house.
     
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  6. HPR

    HPR Administrator Admin

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    - 45 mm trottles and about 300 mm from headflange to bellmouth entry

    - Use a long inlet manifold > ca 100 mm and run the injectors in the trottle bodies

    - Dont seek it into screamer revs as it kills TQ, ca 7000 rpm should be more than enough for your target power and with a wide powerband … and its much more forgiving than a peaky engine...that also means... be sensible on cams 11- 11,5 mm lift and not to silly durations / overlap

    - Bafled sump with trapdoors ( metal) and use the ABF windage tray

    - 4-2-1 exhaust

    - Run the engine cool on temps… ca 70 C WT... also oilcooler , cool air...
     
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  7. Bomber604

    Bomber604 Forum Member

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  8. GVK

    GVK Forum Addict

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  9. Bomber604

    Bomber604 Forum Member

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  10. GVK

    GVK Forum Addict

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    Sorry didn't see that, thought it was a current ad.
     
  11. Jon Olds Forum Junkie

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    Said at the time this was a good price.
    For comparison, I would value one of my full race ABF's on DTH Jenvey's with everything, loom, DTA etc etc
    at about £4-5K
    Only when you build one of these do you know the real costs. Every major lump is £500 to £1K.
    Cams
    Headwork
    ECU
    Loom
    Pistons
    Rods
    Throttle Bodies
    Mapping
    Valve gear
    and that's zero rating my labour...
    Jon
     
  12. Sirguydo

    Sirguydo Fastest milkman in the West Paid Member

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    Talk to GasNGears, aka Hotgolf , Mart .
    He’s rebuilt my KR hybrid ABF internals 2004 race car engine .
    He’s worked on a couple of my man in shed heads , race car one and converted another to solid lifters .
    He’s a commercial entity so please don’t expect advice without cost , he’ll probably will but you should use his services for some work .
    As man in shed is now retired I’d vouch for Marts experience and skills his machining and head work is excellent in my opinion .:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
    Just my thoughts
    Club GTi is definitely the place to find your answers .
    Also Nige’s thread is excellent to see engine development and where an old ABF engine can really go :o
     
  13. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    Bomber604 probably knows hotgolf long before you joined.

    Nige's thread as would be mine or Gurds on ABF T is not applicable.

    As he said he already has his folks, including Dave Crisswell who he trusts.

    It is all there in his response to myself.
     
  14. Sirguydo

    Sirguydo Fastest milkman in the West Paid Member

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  15. Toyotec

    Toyotec CGTI Committee - Happy helper at large Admin

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    Hotgolf also built gearboxes for chaps who used to race in the series long before Gas N Gears, so he is widely known, hence my comment.

    I mapped Nige's car in the early stages when his car was stock NA ABF, megasquirt and homemade ITBs. He never built a trick high comp NA 16v race motor as he went down the boosted path. Initially based on the WOLF R and what Gurdip achieved at the time, His car is quite evolved into what it is to this day.
    I realize you are just trying to be helpful, but certain build threads as you suggested, are not applicable to the desired engine spec being discussed in this thread.

    Dave still works with selective customers, as far as I am aware.
     

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