super charging a 2.0 8v tall block

well today i won a lovely set of g60 injectors and fuel rail, and an evo recirc..

ive been looking at different setups and boom...



throttle body in front of charger.. recirc between the tb and the charger.. i think im definately going down this route now

i also found a startup 2L 8V map for the management i've bought and a **** load of info about it too..

things are starting to look up...

 

well today i won a lovely set of g60 injectors and fuel rail, and an evo recirc..

ive been looking at different setups and boom...



throttle body in front of charger.. recirc between the tb and the charger.. i think im definately going down this route now

i also found a startup 2L 8V map for the management i've bought and a **** load of info about it too..

things are starting to look up...

i've even got the wiring diagram

http://www.mrturbo.co.za/images/docs/fuel & timing harness.pdf

i just dont know if i can dial straight into the distributor

 

Can i ask about clutches aswell...

Should i run the 8v box.. if so what sorta power will it handle ok? and is there an OEM clutch i could replace the standard one with to handle the power?...

I have been offered to have my flywheel lightened for 30 quid.. is that worthwhile??

Cheers

 

big mystake not intercooling that charge air out of the charger - its very very hot

speaking from personal experience of recently doing an 8v 2ltr eaton s'charger build.

 

looking on their website...

http://www.bahnbrenner.com/vw_audi/categories/167/BBM_Supercharger_Kits

they seem to do all their stage 1 kits without i/c, what sort of charge temps are we looking at on a standard pulley then??

Do the likes of the cooper s and the 230k etc have i/c?

edit..

looking on their website, they do the initial kit on standard compression, then a stage 2 is lowering compression and cams, stage 3 being the intercooler..

Im suprised at that figure..250 brake with just a front mount and lowered compression

 

Screw type (Lysholm) superchargers are more efficient than lobe type (Eaton) chargers and as a result put less heat into the aircharge for a given pressure and volume. I would imagine this is the basis for not including an intercooler in BBMs low pressure kit. Not that I have data to show this is acceptable or not, but from a sellers point of view this would make sense, hence their wording of the product.
Also which vehicle are you going to have donate a Lysholm unit for your project inexpensively is another question you need to ask yourself. This is why Eaton, M45-62 units are so popular for this type of mission.
Cooper S and the W203/W210 have top mounted and front mounted I/Cs respectively.
However this not the basis for which you must just fit an intercooler. It really depends on how much airflow you want out if the unit, what pressure ratio it will end up running at (engine pumping losses/ airlfow restrictions), how will this correlate on a compressor map for the supercharger ( or its closest relative) and if your 8v engine hardware will suffer from detonation ( spark adjustment optimized) as a result of your targets.
Regarding outlet charge temps, that is again related to what range the intended compressor is to be run.

 

e45 on std pulley on 8v 2ltr gti makes 5psi to 5krpm then as the engine cant flow more after that boost climbes to 8-10psi.

intercooler inlet just on cruising is physically hot to touch.

not my cup of tea personally.

bog stock compression and engine otherwise

ibiza cupra injectors in there, and a remap of stock ecu currently. not ideal

 

or you can go lpg. with octane rating of 108, detonation wouldn't be as much of a problem

 

ive a good 2.0 8v homemade fitteed with a eaton supercharger for sale 450 , fitted with supercharger, headspacers/ complete apart from needs dizzy poping in pipe work and wireing loom re fiting heres a pic,pm if instrested
,wouldnt benfit from a ecu upgrade ,, also has 280 highlift cam fitted

 

Hi mate, i have a charger already and management and a spare lump, its been sent off to have the brackers made up also...cheers Anyways..

 

is this the car you talk of above??



looks very clean.. any ideas on power figures or how it drives?

 

cannot wait to get home and get mine fitted up...

all i want is a wideband now

 

yes thats the one I did with George.. neat install, he made all the btkts himself, and I did the ally fabrication and advise on what and where etc...

Its stock ECU is its achilles heel, and mapping its stock ecu has been a compromise.. It has been dyno'd on 174bhp, and 170lbft torque, but has the odd annoying flatspot which just gets on ya nerves..

DTA S40 ecu has been bought for it now, so proper ecu which can be mapped to suit will sort all that out and complete it into the superb car it is. Its a credit to George for doing what he has.

 

I have a base map for my management for a standard mk3 8v 2L and have a map to work off of a mates car.. hes got bigger injectors than me.. but the general shape of the map and timing figures will help me..

It's the first time im ever having a go at mapping, using datalogging and a wideband.. arghhhhh

that install is awesome to look at though and something i shall aim towards..

 

thinking about doing this myself to my agg, would a aba head or mk4 2.0 head make the cr lower for the boost and utilise the crossflow for the position of the inlet mani or is room tight in a mk3 bay with a charger? also badger5 does the dta management need splicing into my wiring loom or is it plug and play? just wondering as i am shaving my engine bay and am getting round to the ecu wiring now.

 

dta is standalone ecu and will need wiring into the stock wiring. it is not plug and play, but not massive wiring task either

why do you want to drop the CR? what boost you think its going to produce?
Georges is bog stock... and the 5psi the charger manages is hardly enough to warrant loosing compression over.

 

so basically if i add the supercharger, a fmic and standalone ecu with a nice cam if should be fine on the stock engine?

 

hi badger..

I've always followed the car below as its been built up and always thought the figures to be a little low..

Joe's mk3 golf gti 2.08v Eaton conversion
Engine

Eaton m45 supercharger -
custom made metal 4mm decompression spacer gasket
bosch 440 green top injectors
iridium spark plugs
Comptition race fuel pump
custom FMIC and piping
forge re-cerc divert
flared pipe work
black samco sport hoses
remus exhaust system /Decat
Emarald management lates K3 spec
10psi on standard pulley

currently producing 170bhp with 207ftb ! with lots more to go..

From what i understand from talking to nando and reading your posts, 5psi sees you about 170 brake, why will this car only be producing 170brake with 10psi of boost.. ill be quite happy to see 160/170 on standard compression..

My thinking is to do the conversion in stages, so stage 1 will be std comp and pulley pushing 5psi with charge cooler in place...

stage 2 would be fmic + c'cooler, smaller pulley and lowered compression..

stage 3 would be inc. cam and ported polished head/lighten and balanced flywheel..

But... looking at Joes' figures, they look quite reserved for 10psi.. any ideas/suggestions please?

 

it does'nt produce more than 5psi on stock pulley on the 2ltr engine.. Remember its flow capacity is for a 1600 engine originally in the mini
stock cam in this car. some headwork + cam would open up the top end flow, as from 5krpm, the boost does rise to near 10psi level, as the engine at that point does'nt seem able to flow. choked by cyl head/cam possibly.

intercooling is worked heavily by this charger. I would fear a charge cooler would need a huge pre-rad to cope.

dropping the CR was not req'd for stock pulley. instead of cranking up the pulley on an E45, I would get a larger charger to begin with if doing this on something for myself.

compare 1.8t motors, which run 9.5:1 CR and can turn 20-23psi of boost on stock engines just from remapped K03s type turbos.. 0.5 a compression point and between a quarter and half of their boost (when run on decent engine management) seems more than adequate to me.

Much of the Joe spec to me is poor. 440cc injectors?? FFS, its not even 200bhp. 270cc injectors more than adequate. Its not joined up thinking and an odd mix of bits. Georges car is far better install and thought thru imho.

Just jumping to low CR's is old skool, old technology........ and out of date imho

 

Okay. I think this needs a bit of clarification.
5psi from an M45 does not equate to "170bhp".
There are many other factors to consider on the engine hardware, assembly and calibration that would determine what such an engine would produce from a power and torque perspective. I should add here that that engine is producing 207lbft of twist which at some rpm will be more than a VR6 4motion engine. If only it continued to sustain.

The compression drop on these engines tends to facilitate issues with detonation after running the correct level on intercooling and fuel control. In some light flow or pressure ratio conditions STD head and blocks are fine, on the basis of good calibtaion with good responce from low rpm to sustantained 6Krpm plus running.
M45s with reduced pulley diameters can achieve higher levels of boost ( because they are flowing more air for N crankshaft speed) but may overwhelm the intercooler (depending on capacity) due to higher charge air temps. The selection of undersize charger pullies should be given thought to stop the charger overspeeding and running in a inefficient area of its compressor map. This sometimes leads to pre ignition and det. not helpedby STD nature of 2.0 8v engines with thier emission biased camshaft profile. Stepping to a larger M62 unit would ensure that the charger flows more cooler air and lower revs, although with the STD rev range of an 8v on STD cams you would be hardpressed to overspeed a M45 once the correct undersized pulley is chosen.

I would not expect an 8v on STD parts to have high measured hp as seen in 16v varients as the engine will start to restrict the charger air flow post 5000 rpm leading to boost rise in the manifold plenum. I would expect the torque at 5-6psi on an typical M45 appclication to be around 190-210lbft as this is what it tends to be on a 16v unit with a similar charger/levels of boost/rpm, just that in 16v motors, it will hang in there for longer. So I thought that the 2.0 8v peak torque figure is good but made be part of a diesel like torque curve.

Regarding the use of 440cc injectors. I agree that this maybe a bit on the large side as the engine should not have the requirement fo large air volumes post 5500rpm and a smaller size 286cc/min or so sould be enough to deliever engine lambda for torque and the extra lambda for component protection, subject to calibration understanding.

I would also like to piont out that 23psi on a KKK 5303 turbo on 1781 cc engine does not mean that the engine is actually flowing any more oxygen that if at 15psi psig so we cannot use that comparison to determine the required compression ratio from one type of engine to another.

I do agree that many of these builds are copies of some "word of mouth" understanding and do need more engineering thought for successful execution.