weber adapter plate & 2e2 too high idle!

i've spent bleedin ages trying to get the 2e2 on my clipper to idle right, only just getting the car up and running after it being off the road for 3 yrs, drove it further than round the block yesterday (about 30 miles) and i gotta say it carburated really well, except the blxxxy idle! i have completely stripped and cleaned it, checked throught he faq i've even wound the idle doofer out to the point where it's gonna fall out the housing but it still idles too high the waxstat is within spec and i've checked ignition timing too. any ideas?? failing that i have a weber dmtl i bought a while ago and if i have no joy with the pierburg soon it's going on the car but it needs an adapter to fit between carb and rubber baseplate, does anybody know thw weber part no. for it? or even better does anybody have one going spare?? cold swap for a pierburg

 

I can understand your frustration, as you've already changed the intake manifold o-ring, haven't you? Forgive me if I'm mis-remembering.

Spanish Mike recently had a lot of trouble getting his coolant flow back to how it should be. Bits of the original o-ring seemed to have broken off, and get lodged inside the manifold, blocking the water exit pipe. You may be suffering something similar.

Easy check to see if the waxstat is controlling the over-high idle revs - look at the plunger/actuator of the 3/4 point unit, and see if it is touching the little grubscrew that it should bear on once the waxstat is fully extended. If there's a gap, the waxstat hasn't got hot enough to disengage, and any attempt to adjust the idle via the 'proper' adjustment on the back of the 3/4 point unit will be futile. The waxstat and it's associated gubbins rotates that angle bracket bit, from the other end of the primary throttle spindle.

A rather dodgy photo of the plunger and screw, shown with engine running, at full operating temperature:



If you've already got a Weber, it might be the easy way out if the coolant flow isn't good...

 

thanks for that pete, i'm sure the plunger touches the grubscrew when warm but i'll check it in the next day or two, i haven't got room for the car at home so have to store it at my works yard. i did check the waxstat in hot water before and seemed good but maybe it's a little weak? the coolant flow is defo spot on as i had the head off when i did the o-ring and made sure everything was clear and blew it all through. the engine temp is spot on and pipe gets burny hot with engine. idle refuses to go lower than 1050-1100 i'll go through the checklist again and hopefully find the prob. failing that i may have a very low miles pierburg up for grabs in an old weber box if anyones interested

 

If you do find a gap between 3/4 point unit plunger and grubscrew, it may well be that the waxstat is in early stages of failure. The wax is supposed to be contained between the inside of a brass tube, and a rubber 'condom' surrounding the pin on the inside. Once this condom splits ( ) the wax can gradually escape past the seal through which the pin emerges, leading to progressively higher idle as the pin no longer gets pushed out far enough.

 

thanks again pete, weber would make a bleedin fortune if we didn't have you ! i warmed car up for 15 mins at lunchtime and had a look at 3/4 unit, with idle at 1050 rpm ish it is fully retracted i gently pushed the rocker arm thing with the grub screw a few times just to see if it wasn't seating properly but made no difference. is the 3/4 causing a problem? i guess it isn't directly as the throttle butterfly should be able to fully shut without 3/4 pushrod in the way? have i made the pushrob retract by winding the idle screw out? i swear there should be a proper qualification for 2e2s!!

 

If you wind the idle speed screw back in again, you may find that the plunger comes back to a more normal position (8-9mm extension when running), if not...
...check the wiring to the overrun cutoff valve at the back of the carb, that can't be getting the 'lectric it needs.

But that won't be anything to do with your high idle. That pushrod/plunger can only affect the idle if it is touching something. It has to be a waxstat problem, that will be holding the primary throttle too far open via the warm-up cam and linkage on the other side of the carb.

I'm now trying to remember who it was recently that I advised (badly) to get a new waxstat, only to realise later that his problem must be something else. He may have one for sale cheap! ioboy, I think it was...

 

Just had another thought mate.

Another thing that could make for an idle that stays too high is residual tension in the accelerator cable, when there's no foot on the pedal. Try loosening it a bit (more) where it goes through the support bracket at the front of the carb?

 

thats a good idea i didnt think to check the throttle cable, i'm sure when i went through the carb before the 3/4 unit was in the correct position so must be coz i've wound out the screw. i'll have another look at waxstat too and see if it does really need a new one
thanks again mate

 

Could easily be that if you've had the carb off. I did it once .

Because the 3/4 point unit holds the primary throttle open a fair way ready for the next start, it's easy to re-attach the throttle cable too tight when replacing the carb. The cable still needs to have a touch of slack in it after the car is fully warmed up and the waxstat cam disengages.

 

right, i had a good look and there is definately enough play in the cable am i right in assuming that the waxstat somehow simply holds the primary throttle valve open until warm enough? if so assuming the waxstat is working properly the cam with the small adjusting bolt that touches 3/4 unit pushrod will be fully seated while idling? just wondered as i tried to gently push it towards the pushrod to see if it would bring down the idle, it does if i push harder than you should could it simply be there is a stop screw somewhere on the linkage that is out of adjustment and stopping butterfly from closing enough?

 

If you have a look round on the passenger side of the carb, you can see the waxstat stuff. There's a cam on a fitting (labelled 'warm-up lever' below) that gets pushed round clockwise against a spring as the waxstat extends, and a stop that's attached to the main throttle spindle that rests on this cam during warm-up.

The cam should rotate far enough clockwise after 5 or 6 minutes from cold, that the stop no longer lands on the cam when you take your foot off the go-pedal.

Ignore what's going on round by the 3/4 point unit and the grubscrew etc. Until that cam disengages with the stop, that's where the angle (at idle) of the primary throttle is being determined. I'll try to get a good photo, or a sketch up later, but if you have a good look, maybe with a torch, you'll see what I mean. Just in front of, and below, the autochoke water housing.

Here's a pic of a diagram:



Where it says 'recess' is where the 'pin' should be falling back into when the waxstat has finished its work. the bit with the orange coolant flowing through it is the waxstat itself.

 

sounds promising no need to worry about a pic pete, the one above is good enough i'll have a good look tomorrow after work, for some reason i remember looking at that set up when i stripped the carb before, cant remember why tho hopefully i'll find something amiss. if it doesn't work i might try leaving the weber somewhere near the car, maybe it'll scare it into working!

 

This is great advice - have been driving my 1.6 EZ engined Jetta TX around for the last year with the idle speed at normal operating temperture, somehwere around 1400 rpm (doesn't have a tacho so this is a rough guess) and having to let the clutch up in first to drop the revs in order to turn the engine off without it running-on. The is so much stuff on the net about 2e2's that it is almost too daunting to know where to start- so I didn't and was considering saving for a Weber! This simple piece of advice about the 3/4 point unit plunger in relation to the grub-screw (the two were nowhere near each other at hot idle) identified the inop waxstat.

GSF were able to supply one straight over the counter and other than having to drill out the rounded bottom cross-head mounting screw on the waxstat, the job was a good-un and the car now ticks over at 850rpm (or whatever speed you want it too as the idle adjustment now actually works!) and consequently I have been able to set the timing and CO up as VW intended. I'll see if I can now improve on the 30mpg I was getting (4+E manual).

Whilst writing, anyone know where I can get a new air filter housing - blending flap is seized and hinge breaking-up, exhaust manifold hot air plate and associated hoses? Mine is missing all hoses and the hot air plate(!) - new exhaust manifold was fitted just before I got the car and the bodger ommitted to refit everything else!! Have experienced carb icing over the winter (another foible with the 2e2 which as EZ_Pete has previously warned, should not be under estimated) - thanks and best wishes to all.

 

umm ok, had a good look, once warm the waxstat pin extends and pushes the rear part of the warm up lever out, i tried gently to see if the waxstat was extending fully by moving the warm up lever further clockwise, it didn't make any difference to the idle though in fact the warm up lever seem a bit floppy as if the spring isn't pushing against it? also wound the idle adjuster back in on the 3/4 unit, the pushrod is still nearly fully while running but comes out to where it should be once engine is turned off

 

I presume you mean the pushrod is still nearly fully retracted while running?

If so, you could have the overrun cutoff control unit fitted in your fuse/relay box. If your idle is above 1200 this may be switching the overrun solenoid on the back of the carb (as it should). This would explain your 3/4 -point unit's apparent misbehaviour. Just need to get that idle below 1200 and all should be well.
Jamie_pyrite found one on his car: the one with "61" written on it (upside down). Sorry Jamie, I stole your pic!


It may be in a different position if your fusebox is CE1 rather than CE2 (position 22 rings a bell).

The waxstat/warm-up cam situation sounds a bit odd. That's quite a strong return spring, so I wouldn't expect any play in the cam. I'll grab a spare carb and take a pic or two of the ends of that spring so you can compare.

Ends of the return spring (sorry about the usual crap pic quality):



Just a thought...that Allen-head screw vertically below my "T'other end" caption isn't loose is it??? That adjusts the angle of the cam...

 

umm, i dont think the spring is in the same place on mine, although as the lever is not touching the main throttle spindle i doubt if this is raising the idle? can't remember seeing the pin on the main spindle either, i'll have to look harder. it's a little hard to see the depth perception on your pic pete but the end nearest the waxstat looks like it's resting on the top of the warm up lever? mines resting against the shiny bit in your pic above 'one end' ? maybe that would explain the slack am i right in assuming 'one end' is nearest outside of carb and 'tother end' is nearest carb body ? allen bolt is indeed tight but it might not be after i've fired it via missle through a pierburg factory window i'll have a look at the fusebox and relays tomorrow, as long as the bruises from the monster hailstorm i got stuck in while looking at carb have gone down[:^(]

 

It's damn hard to see the pin on a fully assembled carb, but here's a shot of it just disengaged beyond the end of the cam.



You are correct about the spring's ends, the "t'other end" is nearest the carb body, "one end" is farthest out.

Missiles...

This pic shows the angle of the warm-up lever with the cam/stop in the same position as in the above pic. I've put in an approx dimension. The waxstat should be pushing it round at least this far.

 

thanks pete[:d] the dimensions look different on mine, the square pin sticking out from the waxstat that pushes on the lever sticks out about 3-4mm from the casting? i can't figure out what tother end of spring is resting on yours as it seems a long way away from waxstat casting? and i'm certain that one end is not fixed in part of the casting either i'm convinced the spring is all to cock on mine now, i'll save the pics and have another look tomorrow. how can something thats only 18yrs old that just mixes a bit of fuel and air be so difficult to get right

 

finally got time to have another look at it today, i got called away at work yesterday so couldn't get to the car no wonder the position of the spring pin was confusing me pete, is missing as a temporary measure i tywrapped the end of the pin to the top of the warn up lever, not ideal i know but at least the spring is now under tension and has stopped the warm up lever flopping around! i guess you won't de surprised to know that it made little difference to the idle though, still idling at 1000 fully warm. i checked the fusebox and there is a '61' relay but it's on a clip on extra bit on the top of the fusebox, is that the idle messing one? i did take a pic of it i also took some pics of the carb but i now bow to your superior carb photo taking as mine came out completely useless

 

I expect that with a relay no. 61 there, it is controlling the overrun valve, so that probably/possibly explains the 3/4 point unit's behaviour.

I bought a decent digi camera yesterday, so the quality of my carb pics should be much better once I get the hang of it .

Remind me (by PM if you like) where you are; not too far away, I think. Maybe we could have a look at it together some time, sounds like there's a few probs in the waxstat area.

1000rpm ain't too bad though, 950 is 'target' depending on where you look.