Folks , are the 1.8t rods that bad? I just got lovely forged JE pistons for my short block , and it kinda goes against the grain to fit the heavy 9a rod . bear in mind my engine is n/a , with a planned redline of <8k , and 180-190 ish bhp . I know I should have Scat or similar rods in there , but I've kinda blown the budget.... There seems to be lots of people complaining the 1.8t rods are the weakest point of that engine , but take the AGU or BAM ones for example , they have to stand up to more power as standard than I'm going to get . All advice appreciated .
I know nowt about nowt, but; The internet tends to cause 'group think' this is a recognised phenomena, where people repeat what they have heard. The engineers at vw are bright guys, I would trust their products, unless you have 1st or close 2nd experience of parts failure Its a minfield out there. Again, all IMHO Jon
Agreed Jon . Just 'cos Tinterweb says so , doesn't mean it is true! I have no experience of 1.8t engines , at all , so cannot comment.
They do not rev to 8000rpm though. BAM, APY and AMK engines also known to fail as well with rev limits of say 7200rpm. It is not the 20mm pin you got to worry about. Having seen how these rods bend when a timing belt goes pop, I would say fit either tried and tested conrods, or stick with some shot peened old school, non cost reduced KR/9A jobs. Not sure if EA113 rods are used in older engines anyway? One for HPR perhaps?
Valve to piston contact potentially may bend rods in any engine. I don't think this is a design problem. I have seen a few in my time. 7200 to 8000 is above normal road revs. Forged pistons also fall into 'do I need them?' category, as there is little fundamentally wrong with VW's design. I remember the early days of split skirt mini pistons, now they were weak Again, all IMHO Jon
I have seen several road 1.8T engines bend the rods after timing belt failure, I have one such engine in the back of the house. I have never seen this happen in a 16v motor, where the just valves are the usual calamity. The EA113 rods in a 1.8T seem prone to stretching if engine speed is exceeded especially on the exhaust stroke, piston accelerating towards TDC, leading to failure and engine destruction. I know HPR uses some sort of stock rod in one of their race cars so it would be a good idea to hear how they make these work despite what I am saying. VW pistons are great as many of the later components are forged from Mahle. However the compression ratio may not be adequate for what you may want to achieve, hence the need to fit aftermarket jobs from Wossner, CP or JE.
We used 9A rods with oem bolts these rods were lightened quite a bit , still 600+ grams these saw 10.500 rpm on several occasions with no engine damage ( downshifts) The 1.8T rod is IMO far better than whats going around...BOBQUIZZI ran 500 hp on a STD 1.8T AEB bottom end ( same rods) and many say 280- 350 hp max Oem Pistons are becoming lighter in weight...aftermarket pistons are often heavier... VWM used these 1.8T rods in several engines in grN/ DTC VW-Cup cars need to run OEM rods, dont think these boys are gentle....going down the gears. For N.A engines there is no need to spin high revs 7300- 7500 rpm should be plenty to make good power EA113 rods have tapered small ends, not something i would recomend in a N.A engine. S3 BHZ/CDL rods are beefier and can handle ca 450- 500 Hp / 500 Nm without issue
Indeed, EA113 S3 use a 21 or 22 mm pin N.A FSI and TFSI 200 hp use a 20 mm pin (iirc) and EA888 are 21 /22 /23 mm pin ( afaik )
My forged pistons are 20mm pin. Are fsi or tfsi rods better than 1.8t ? Or should I just save up for Scats, what's the chance of finding good S3 rods and rebushing.
FSI /TFSI rods are tapered ,use them with a piston that is for a parallel rod and you risk piston pin flex I wouldnt go that route...
Tris...std 144mm 9A or KR rods will be fine with ARP bolts fitted. On your spec 7,750 tops is more than enough to use with peak around low to mid 7's. I can get a non Chinese budget 144mm rod if you really want them...but not really needed on your spec.
For the S3 we are talking about the 8P Chassis car with the EA113 TFSI motor yes? I only ask this as we also have the 8L S3 with the older APY/BAM/AMK 20vT motor (also EA113).
What you wrote Hugo got me thinking. Experiences vs Experiences. So I have tried to make sense of it by comparing part numbers for a better understanding. The AEB 20vT is a EA827 motor and uses a set of 027 rods going by the set part number 027198401B. These are old std rods that can be found in the KR, 9A ,6A, that we are familiar with. The 2.2 and 2.3, 5 cylinder ABY turbo, and 7A NASP motors use the same but with the extra rod makes the part number 027198401C. What you said makes sense on the engine that achieved 500bhp, as this is exactly what Killa and lugnuts did some years ago on vortex, when they experimented with a 9A turbo on stock internals+stacked gaskets to 500bhp as well. I have looked into this as found out, the 06A EA113 BAM, APX, APY,and AMK 210-225 PS 20vT engines use the same spec of rod going by the part number. I know there are other lesser 20vT engines with these fitted also such as the AGU, APP, AYP ( of the Seat Ibiza) the AJQ and so on. 225ps spec Audi production 20vT motors are used in the Palmer Sport single seater and are tuned to just around 300bhp or 360bhp with over boost. Most of the rods I have seen bent are those from 20vT motors such as the AUM, AUQ and so on. They are the 19mm small end jobs and have part number for the set as 06A198401. I have checked and this rod set is also in the Audi 2.0 ALT lump. This may part explain why certain race 20v style engines are holding together and other road engines do not, if the boost is turned up. There is a strong view in the aftermarket world that rods on the 20vT motor up to the BAM/AMK/APY spec motor need to be replaced after torque levels of 300lbft are exceeded at high rpm. Based on what has been shared in the thread on the race engines and older engines using the same components as say an 8N TT or 8L/1M S3/LCR, is there any justification to this? If there is, what causes the failures? Others feel free to add to this.
The main reason I started this thread is that VW have gone back to 144s after the ABF era ish , so there HAS to be OEM ones that are good , and a lot fresher and healthier than KR era stuff.
I can summarise in the below and would be come clearer what was being said. For what you want to do the suggestion is to use simple KR/9A rods - Same as a BAM 20VT or even the S2 engine. VW/AUDI/Seat/Skoda Conrods Part number for Set Engine Code Valves Engine family Length Comments 027198401B 9A, 6A KR, PL 16v EA827 144 20 027198401B PB,PF 8v EA827 144 20 027198401B AEB, ADR 20v, 4cyl EA827 144 20 027198401B APX, APY, BAM, AMK 20v, 4 cyl EA113 144 20 027198401B AGU, AYP 20v, 4 cyl EA113 144 20 027198401C ABY, 7A 20v, 5 cyl 144 20 027198401D AQY 8v EA113 144 20 06A198401 AUM, AUQ, ALT 20v, 4 cyl EA113 144 19 037198401C ABF, AGG 16v EA827 159 21 06D198401 AWX - FSI 16v EA113 06D198401? AXX, BWA - TFSI 16v EA113 06H198401? - TSI, Twin VCT chain 16v EA888
I finally got an 06a/b rod , 19mm pin and a KR/9a/6a 20mm pin one side by side . And I have decided it's a waste trying to make the newer ones work! stock "old" rod , no rings , cap or nuts. 20mm pin stock "new" rod , again no cap , bolts or rings . Note nicer pin , 19mm new rod , no pin. I couldn't strip the older rod from the piston , not many tools in my kitchen ! From looking at them , there's bugger all weight difference between the bare rods , and both are rifle drilled , and the full width small end on the old one instils confidence! Also I have ARP bolts for KR rods... for reference , ALT 20v Piston weight.
