We're fighting a losing battle on this one, the op comes from a vtec background so hopefully he will see sense. I see you bought a M3 Matt, assuming E36?
16v power for me, especially as a mate of mine bought an abf lump which was already heavily modified. He paid 800 for the engine which had different cams, headwork and was bored out to a 2.1, it had all the receipts and paperwork to prove it's 210bhp. I haven't been as fortunate yet to find such a bargain but they do exist.
I think i need to try and go out in a 20vt Mk2 because until i've been in one it seems silly to rule it out, by the same token though i wouldn't want to commit to one in case it was indeed dull (despite being quick of course!). I've been out in a 2.0 TFSI engined Mk2 which certainly wasn't dull, but it was also circa. 400bhp so in a slightly different league! I have already had a Mk2 2.0 16v so while the relative simplicity of a screaming 16v appeals i might get ex-girlfriend syndrome on that one! The other downside is that even with 5 times my budget i probably still couldn't build an engine as good as the (almost standard!) lump in the Civic. Volksport your car is what made me originally think 20vt, it's pretty much what i'd want to end up with a few years down the line (mine is also a Red 3dr Big Bumper!) The lure of the 6-pot is a strong one also, mainly for the noise and i suppose down the line i could strap a blower to it if i decided i really didn't like my bank balance and would rather collect petrol receipts A 'charged ABF would be a very interesting project for me but perhaps a bit more long-term due to the part-sourcing and trial & error of fabricating mounts etc. Having got very bogged down at the moment in the middle of re-chassising a Defender i'd prefer something a little more out-the-box to start with. Perhaps starting with an ABF and getting that going, and then collecting FI parts for a secondary build. Or i could put the Type R back to standard and liberate another couple of grand...
Its hard when you have multiple cars to know what to do with them as you dont really want two of them to end up the same, with the Civic being sorted do you really need the golf to be quick quick? Or like you say if you did the golf do you need all the fancy bits on the civic? As i said in my other post I drive a modded ep3 quite alot and Iv also got a light Mk2 with a 180bhp valver, If I owned both Id find it hard to justify using whatever was the lesser car as both are simular, for me the civic wouldnt turn a wheel as althou its a more modern drive the Mk2 can do things in corners modern cars just cant and I really like hondas and love vtec engines to the point one might end up in my Mk2....that could be your option 8 or whatever we're up to now.
Long term my plan is to put the civic back to standard and sell it, and keep the Mk2 in whatever form it takes, as like you say there is no point having two hot hatches really. I love the civic from a performance and driving point of view but I'd rather be driving round in a Mk2! Whether the Mk2 would be my only car or I kept it as a toy and bought something sensible as well depends on work, at the moment it's only a 16 mile each-way commute so even a thirsty VR wouldn't take too much of a toll on the wallet. If someone crashed into the back of my civic I would put the engine in the Mk2 without a doubt, it would be a monster!
There is so much more to an engine than plain numbers. I'd rather have decent response and proper delivery over headline figures. Ive got an e36 too now. 1.8t shove and abf ability to maintain torque as the revs rise. In fact it peaks beyond 7k. Initially I was going to get a mk3 vr but that proved plain impossible, I could only find dogs
i used a farriday 2mm alloy spacer plate to achieve a compression ratio of 8.9.1 arp rod bolts/head studs lightend and balanced bit of porting to the head standard cams a chopped 20vt plunum ABF 3" thottle body front mount cooler got a range of pulleys for a cooper s and had a play with ratios your only in surry come and have a look if you like im only in Essex.
Totally agree, my 2.0 'only' makes ~240bhp but puts a lot of similar and higher-powered turbo cars to shame due to the response and perfectly matched powerband/gearing (also partly due to the fact it's also lighter than most hot-hatches of its era) My friend has an E36 M3 Evo and that goes very well, but it's a bit soft being the soft-top. The howl of a 6-cylinder definitely moves you more than a 4-pot especially one with a big rotating baffle in the exhaust!
As others have said try and get a few passenger rides if you can, but you will need to try a few 20vs as they are all different, oe set ups are a bit smooth and tame, but nippy, remapped gives them a bit of bite, where as ones on qpeng hit harder, esp with k04s, I took PAB in mine as its not much more power then his, but mines more agressive and gives you a good kicking when it comes on boost, where as phils on oe managemt with a hybrid turbos a lot more suttle in how it launches you down the road
Another option for you How about a complete Eaton M45 charged APK 2.0 engine from a mk4 with all required parts to fit (clocks, ecu, anciallaries, immboliser, etc)? Mines for sale here - and I've had a few interested for Mk1s&2s. Would certainly be characterful and interesting with the 0lag and whiiine.
Loen 20vt on ebay atm accident damaged 600 ono get it bought and put it in.. I loved my 16v when it was revving its nuts off but with the 20vt its effortless and goes like ****!! I love mine.. I was lucky enough to get a well specced donor car and my 20vt inc the origional one owner from new golf stands me at 2.5k... there are a few things I need to upgrade at some point i.e the brakes as they're 280 mm lol but i'm pushing 290bhp and it's as reliable as a vw
2.9 vr6! Very quick especially when stripped out and the sound will put a smile on you face at any speed!
just to noisey,no real go and suck fuel big time and front end heavy in a mk2 like so 10 years ago but not now, times have moved on and 20v and tfsi is where its at Sound sweet able to slip about and loads of go, with out the need to strip it out and drive a shell about
20vt on k03s with a juicy map and still strip it out thats what my mk3 cupra was and i think that is a similar size to a mk2 but probably weighs more. it didnt have a diff so was useless in the wet but with dry roads i upset alot of cars i.e mr impreza sti [:^(]
[YOUTUBE]qy6XJ4cnvKQ&[/YOUTUBE] +1 from me of course as here's mine doing a quick run edit: mine's only a 2.8 though but with the 2.9 inlet manifold and throttle But personally looking at the prices of vr6 lumps personally I would go for the later 24v spec with more power if I was to get another one.
aye you can get a 4motion engine for next to nowt even the r32 engine+gearbox and dif i got was only 1800
200bhp/ton in Golf 2 suggestion. @ James MK2 200bhp/ton in a Golf II? There are several ways of acheiving this target and one way would be to ignor many other important inputs to overall vehicle character. Only one final path would suit what you want though. Some basics. First test the vehicle on a dyno of your choosing to establish a baseline. Secondly test the vehicle at a chosen weighing station to validate the weight in kg/ton. In all cases ensure you have to set controls and limitation as best as is possible to minimise any external noise that cause an issue to further validation. Now you are referenced to that scale and that dyno, you can work out your peak power to weight ratio. From here you choose which method/s would allow you to meet your targets. i.e. Path 1 - Loose vehicle weight and recheck on original scales Path 2 - Improve engine power and torque to achieve highest measured power for given mods and validate on the original dyno. You could even ignore what the torque curve looks like before or after the peak power is measured as you are just after power to weight ratio. Take path 2 and divide by path 1 and see how close you are to your goal. If not quite there yet, go through another iteration to correct for any differences. Job done? ...Well not quite... The not so basics Problem with the above is while reducing the weight of the vehicle safely, to say well under 1000kg from a base of 1100kg, would mean the engine does not have to achieve 200bhp peak on your chosen dyno. However, targeting a peak power number without studying the effects of gearing, and of course the entire torque curve, response from a part load/idle condition to max torque, means you could be at risk of building an engine that is pretty flat to the redline and boring to drive. Alternatively you could chose to do nothing about the weight at all and go for MORE POWER! From a or a 1.8T turbo motor and end up with a too lively engine at lower gears and engine speeds, propmting wheel slip and worse yet out of puff at high engine speeds as torque quickly desends to rubbish at the redline. A 16vK Eaton'd compressor would also have similar issue with torque and spinning wheels from 2000rpm and would be very noisey. However after backing off a bit with the wheels settling back to grip it would be very electric in delivery right up to 6500 rpm. Honda engines, like the Euro CTR K20Zx are always always slated by some folk as having 'no torque' yet have bhp peak pub numbers that everyone likes to qoute. Relating back to VW engines, the beauty of Honda engines is that while the engine per say does not deliver EA827/113 20V turbo levels of torque or a VR6 thump, it can deliver + OEM plenum ABF 16v levels of torque from 3000rpm to 8000rpm. If such an engine was geared as a STD VW Golf MKwhatever is, then it would make a very boring pull to 8500rpm and struggle in top gears to hit V max. Very much like how some Toyota 1.6 4A-GE 20v engines are coupled to 4 speed A240E autoboxes which kills the experience in a AE101 Levin. In the VW camp there some folk who complain that an average serviced Golf MK3 VR6 feels sluggish on it's factory gearset and a 3.39 FDR. Subjectively I could inject maybe you who do have such opinions have not driven my old ankor with its stdish engine and OE 3.39 FDR gearbox Thankfully Honda engineers know that at sub 3000rpm an engine like the K20Zx actually has some torque and this can multiplied via gearsets and FDR very 'short', to improve vehicle pullaway and feel that would be acceptable to customers. Worried about too low a vehicle speed per 1000rpm in gear? No sweat...The redline is 8500rpm at least and more when the engine is messed with and would achieve more than average torque being sustained for a very wide range of engine speeds. This makes a > 1200kg CTR/ITR/ATR a very exciting accelerating car and one that is far superior in overall performance compared to some MK4 1.8T with a weedy KKK huffer that has been flashed with a generic map, waking up at 3-3.5K in almost diesel like fashion and all over at ~ 6000rpm Noticed I have not targeted or quoted any specific power numbers? Well there is a reason for that too. Unless pre correlated, my references for bhp/torque data, of which I posses quite a lot, maybe different to your reference/s which would be different to another reference so on. This leads to false expectations and does not answer how such a combo would really accelerate in real life. So this is how I would go about your exercise? First as in my inital statement, establish a baseline looking at not only max values but also where they occur the character leading up to these points, engine response and vehicle integration. Now benchmark to other vehicles. Drive your Civic at various loads and scenarios and see what about that engine character would you want in a Golf if possible. I mean without actually transplanting it, which is another story Be driven/drive 1.8T vehicles including MK2 Golfs retrofitted with such as well as VR6 varients, 16v and so on STD or modified. As this is Club GTI and we must be balanced so even try 8vs Find a way to capture those experiences that impressed you then translate into a set of components for your MK2 ignoring cost for now. Short list the required powertrain and support components. Carry out costing based on target budget and choose a powertrain or modification. Now intergrate your powertrain to the vehicle. Evaluate how well it meets the original objectives by rechecking your weight, power and torque and general vehicle package. Write a report on here showing step by step process of how you went about achieving your objectives Now the job is done... Well until the speed itch anyway... HTH Toyotecwerke.
