24v VR6 tuning?

I've had a look and tried using the search function but haven't been able to unearth any discussions on regarding the tuning options/capabilities of the BDE engine. Has anyone got any experience or knowledge of what's realistically achievable or possible when it comes to building a solid, reliable but slightly more potent late-spec 24v VR6 motor?

Basically, I'm looking to fit an extra 2 cyls into my Mk3, and whilst I would love to install an R32 block, I simply cannot justify the money right now, so have decided to settle for the later spec engine from the Mk4 4-Motion. However, I would be looking to strip and rebuild the engine and have been researching the different tuning options, but have so far found nothing but Wossner pistons.

Thanks!

 

For all intents and purposes, the bde is a 2.8 version of the r32 lump and things likes cams are interchangeable between them. Research the tuning options of the r32 and you'll be able to transfer everything across except for maybe turbo size and pistons.

My mate has his bde lump remapped to nearly 240 brake in his Corrado with nothing done to the engine and a 2.5 inch exhaust system. R32 power for a start and a lot less than the r32 block.

 

That's really helpful, thank you! I had read that a lot of the internal components were the same as the 3.2 was an evolution of the 2.8(?). Will look into this in more detail then.

Exactly that. Would love the 3.2 (or 3.6 if money wasn't a factor) but the scene tax on them is just nuts.

 

Yep just need a map decent induction kit and sorted exhausted

If you want anymore power then you are better of going f/i

 

Excellent. Thank you for that.

Yep. To be honest, that is the long-term plan, which is why I want to do a full rebuild and throw in stronger pistons and rods, but I really want the car back on the road asap for now, and think a remap and exhaust are all I'd be looking to do initially.

Nonetheless, has anyone had any experience with gas-flowing and port matching the head? I'm wondering whether this makes any significant difference to the behaviour and/or performance of the 24v.

 

most peeps if they are going asfar as porting a head normally start of with an r32 head as its large port already

 

I've stumbled upon a few people talking about fitting R32 heads with their BDE bottom ends (and R36 heads on R32 blocks) - is this a straight fit then? Thanks again for your help!

 

yeah straight fit, its what im doing when i start my turbo build

 

Somehow these head/engine combo's never seem to work out, I would always suggest modifying oem as best possible really and stay away from any combo work, mild p&p etc, I've said it a few times to people but they try it and it never seems to work out! In terms of tuning, the ecu's of the BDE and things like BFH are very similar, best ME7.1.1. line-ups I've ever done, mainly because they are both inlet and exhaust VVT compatible so the exhaust side is not missing and the offsets are so close. Main thing to note about "tuning" is that things like peak torque are mapped out for oem spec so for anything over 10-15hp you need to modify the air paths, be that filter and zorst or FI which shifts the peak torque up, the inlet mani change over functions are set for oem peak torque, you can modify them if need be to change but it depends on whether or not you change the fundamental principles which is the air path/peak torque. Likewise you can change the other 700 main maps to suit!

Half a dozen such things I've experienced, could be for various reasons but you want an honest account, that's what I give you! From someone who has studied engineering principles for 25 years I would say looking into the limited budgetary constraints of oem through to the additional forces exerted due to varying offsets, modify oem - undersquare engine, loves boost, doesn't love going outside the 500,000 development budget, no need for excess!

Let me know if you want to know what's in these ecu's - plenty of info in the old Google+ account if you want it?

 

BDE and BFH ECUs are the same and are interchangeable.

I have crossed flashed engine maps on these ECUs with no drawbacks.

BDE 24v can be tuned by software from 200ish bhp @ 6400rpm and 200lbft @ 3500rpm to 220bhp @ 6500rpm and 215lbft @ 4000rpm, tuning out the dip from the change in the variable manifold runners.

6-2-1 exhaust will help some higher end output and then a set of cams + re calibration.

Mat Mk3 on here has a BDE in his light green coloured Mk2. He could answer more on how it drives as is.

 

I'm adding this here given it seems to be an appropriate thread for discussion and it's with regard to pushing the 24v 3.2 up to 100BHP per litre if possible.

I have only bolt on mods at present but ultimately would be looking to fit a modified head and have the exhaust manifolds etc ceramic coated.

The mods at present stand at drop in panel filter, modded OEM airbox with 100mm hose to the airspace under the battery tray, Shrick 268 cams, Milltek manifolds, 100 Cell Sport CATs, Milltek resonated exhaust. Its reasonably nippy at present but needs the ECU recalibrated to get the best from it.

In the interim I have been toying with a couple of ideas:
1. Fitting the larger MK4 euro DSG MAF, airbox and TB hose prior to recalibration.
Ive already measured an increasing repeatable gain between stock airbox, DSG lower airbox/snorkel & my modded OEM airbox. Now whether this is due to one or more of the following; an increase in airflow, reduced pressure drop or resonance effect is beyond my simple home brew approach but the difference is repeatedly measureable in data obtained using ME7 logger.

Given I already have a MK4 DSG upper airbox and appropriate MAF to TB pipework Im wondering if I should obtain the larger MAF and store until such time my ECU is recalibrated.
I dont have a flowbench but upon looking at the cross section between the stock and larger proposed MAF the actual sensor occludes a fair proportion of the x sectional area. Taking basic fluid dynamics principles into account would suggest that there would be less pressure drop and a higher fluid velocity through the larger MAF. If this in within the breathing capacity of the intake system would determine if an improvement would be seen. However given the improvement measured with the stock airbox modifications tends to suggest that this larger MAF may possibly still yield improvement on an engine with modified breathing.

2. Converting the exhaust to a true duel system like an E36 M3 or fitting a custom exhaust with a slightly larger diameter than the Milltek system:
Ive looked out several rules of thumb for duel systems and single systems for NA breathing limit which tends to suggest that the post CAT secondaries and the diameter of the Milltek system are both undersized if you want to push the cars breathing past about 280BHP.
Now the E36 M3 dual pipes are larger as stock than the post CAT secondaries on our vehicles tending to support this theory.
So given this potential premise would it be worth the fabrication costs to fit a true dual system as Ive been deliberating over this for months but honestly dont have the time to re study my fluid dynamics and how they relate to exhaust system principles.

As an addendum there is belief out in the wild that the stock inlet manifold is somewhat restricted but if its conceivable that the above would realistically add an extra few ib/ft then Id happily put my hand in my pocket.

Discuss?

 

No point changing the MAF, you wouldn't really introduce turbulent flow on NA with it and high velocity is also good for the engine at other loads - save it for FI, plus you need to mod plenty to suit in the ecu if doing it properly and I've seen some running over 450hp on oem.

The variable resonance with the inlet mani means it is better than one without unless you go into detail regarding the wave/helmholtz tuning of an aftermarket one based on lengths/volumes etc, if you're going for lairy cams etc then you're changing the peak torque values so you can modify the change over functions of the oem mani to suit your torque modelling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZRG_A2r6S4

The BDE and BFH ecu's are not identical but are so similar they can be cross flashed as Toyo said, much easier to reverse engineer than AUE to full VVT or the newer mk5's to these older ones comparatively.

The contents of the ecu, at least most of the main maps are here - BFH/BDE;

 

Sorry matey, I removed your advertising link. Feel free to speak to gaj07 on here for a good deal on advertising rates!

Would have thought late EOBD BDE ECUs are the same electrical architecture as the late R32 ECUs? That is what is certainly looks like inside and as said, I have been able to cross flash them so one 2.8 BDE ECU, is currently running a R32'd MK3.

Back on topic though.

The MAF on a R32 project was large enough to 300ps of flow I would have thought.

268 cams are fair from 'lairy' though...

 

Electrically yes, plus there's nothing major in terms of structure/tuning maps, just the odd bit of code added in the R32 which affects the offsets.





Did you change the factor for fuel consumption display etc to read right, few things like that to take into account too.


No worries on the advertising front, get asked for such things a lot - some early files I did here that people want;


http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=7683.0title=

 

I was not referring to calibration structure.

Did not have to. Entire 022_CP calibration, flashes into ME7.1.1 BDE ECU.

 

You've lost me mate? How do you mean entire calibration flashes? CP's are not the same as BG's in many places, fuel consumption indication is is a prime example.

 

^^In the same way a 8N0 cal can be flashed into a 6K0 ECU.

 

2 x 1.8T's are a bit different to a 2.8 v 3.2 though and just because you can cross flash something without it being checksummed doesn't make it correct!

I know you frequent the tuner forums also and if you take that dodgy CP def file that is floating about and a bone stock BDE the values of the indicator are different; I've also highlighted the KVA fuel consumption area (or most of it) in the ecu and you can see most is exactly the same but not all;



Bone stock CP (BFH) v's Def CP file v's BG (BDE);



Bit of info if anyone's interested;
http://nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/index.php?topic=496.msg3630#msg3630