Forums are murder when there's no hard facts. It can detroy a reputable name in seconds, even if the fault doesn't lie with them. Everyone will have their own opinion/point of view/finger to point.
Im very sorry to see that Gurds, and that is one hell of a gut wrenching way of furthering this debate. The one thing that Id noticed after Fridays postings is an absence of overheat in the bearings to suggest a part which stuck and caused the rod bolt to fail. What rods is rambow running?
So true Mart. Years to build reputations and seconds to destroy. I can only report what I find and go from there. Certainly is Chris. Nige and I bought these at the same time and have had the engines running for roughly the same length of time too. Main differences have been that mine were only fitted once opposed to Nige's double rebuild (less torque cycles) and I have run much higher boost pressures while tuning. I have seen 1.4+ bar out of mine but the engine let go at 5k+ with 0.8bar. Oh, Rambow has a belt and braces approach. Pauter, JE, ARP throughout. Gurds
It's the naming and shaming aspect which people have previously commented on about this thread. Yes, this latest bad news supports the theory, but neither here nor elsewhere were there definitive answers, and quite openly so.
It does beg the question as to what is happening. The last real stresses were likely done at Curborough. Higher boost, versus less weight to pull? But subject to a stripdown, it looks like it will eliminate the torque cycles, but my thought was also whether the small end bearing had suffered from the off-centre gudgeon pin. I know it was inspected, but it's a doubt. To some it's spendthrift behaviour, and to others its self-insurance and peace of mind All you can both do is put it down to experience and have caveat emptor firmly in mind going forward, because whats done is done.
Just as I'm passing, largely irrelevant and quite possibly pointless, but a few comments on a few things I've read in this thread. All separate points too, so it reads like gibberish so I apologize. But they're in here anyway so just my take on it... Were the VMI bolts torqued to ARP specs or the VMI specs, given that they differ? Although not the matter at hand, but has been mentioned here, the "Max Speeding" rods that I have seen personally - not the VMI's - as well as others that were produced at the 'Max Speeding' factory (can't remember actual name right now) which came with different 'logos/names/etc' etched onto them have all had genuine ARP 2000 series bolts with them. The ARP fitting instructions were supplied with a few sets and all sets included the usual pack of ARP grease, even compared the bolts, instructions and grease (packet and contents) to a set supplied from the US for a VR build which arrived with some custom cams when the initial "fake ARP bolts" gossip started circulating online. I've rebuilt engines with the same Chinese rods as removed after years of use which have gone on for years more. And built fresh engines with Chinese rods which have seen extensive track and even race use, although legit ARP bolts were a constant. The rods were in spec and within acceptable weight of each other. All have lasted to date. I would use Chinese rods again, but believe whole heartedly a little extra money to a trusted supplier will net a more consistent, reliable product and, as importantly, service should anything go wrong. Tangential again, but I've had a UK supplier refuse to answer my questions on their rods source and quality - so it's not just eBay / VMI to be weary of. Lastly and the only bit worth reading, I am sorry and I do feel for anyone having a motor let go, especially two cars which I've looked at with interest countless times. So now that a warning/steer clear on them may be a fair cop, I'd have to to agree with Brian and Chris that hard facts and numbers would benefit greatly. No disrespect to anyone if anything comes across that way, it's not intended, and I hope it all gets sorted ASAP.
Oh, don`t get me wrong, I`d love to be able to go that route, but as with most of the things I`ve done, budget is very high on the list, but hopefully with an eye on longevity. Agreed. I`ll continue to share my successes(many) and failures(fortunately much lower in number). Hopefully that will assist someone else when looking for uprated parts or a DIY equivalent.
Yes, mine were torqued up using the specs provided with the VMI rods. I sill believe that the rod bolts may be a potential weak spot at my level of tune hence why I'd bought ARP replacements. In the interest of knowing, I will try to get the remaining bolts tested along with some ARP and OEM bolts to see how they compare to each other. Gurds
With respect budget is relative. Anyone observing your 'Ring activity and dedicated UK and 'Ring track days would see track entry, tyre and fuel outlay which is hardly insignificant. You could even go racing tomorrow if you wanted through the instant reduction in consumable costs, but it does have the upside / downside of talent getting laid bare! If folk can enter the Golf GTI Championship in their 20s, it's not expensive. I had an engine issue a few years ago. Like yours, it was chicken and egg, and hard to fathom. I had my doubts about whether it was my responsibility. But like most things in 'racing', there are no warranties and that's life. I purposely didn't name and shame the builder because there was no absolute justification. I paid the 2k bill to fix it, and that was nearly 7 years ago, long forgotten. If it blows up tomorrow, I've scarcely had to touch it and I've had my money's worth. Same with a decent watch I bought 15 years ago and haven't had to touch. You pays your money, you takes your choice --> 35,000ft view.
Just spoke with the van driver of one of my bolt manufacturers . They do stretch and hardness testing Cost would depend on how detailed a report we want paperwork cost money lol We could do as a shared cost test ? Like head post for Brian G ? Cost will depend on how many bolts and how detailed report is wanted . Chris we like you too for your technical and background research
At the risk of venturing a touch off topic... Throwing thousands at the car was never the point of my build though. It was to see how far I could push a Golf with low budget and DIY skills. More money on parts would mean less track time. I`d rather spend the on driving it instead of building it. Some prefer the opposite and that`s absolutely fine. I could go out tomorrow and buy a set of 4-pots, but I want to see how far I can push the single piston setup. Same with the turbo conversion. I could have bought an off the shelf GT28, but I bought a 75 TD04 and rebuilt it for a fraction of the cost. Each to their own and I certainly won`t say one way is `right` and the other is wrong. It`s all about the particular route the individual wants to travel.
Its not really off topic, so much as totally intertwined budgets. Although the ethos of home build remains, if 150 was the budget allocated to rods, which I think most would recognise as mega cheap, then caveat emptor was risked against tracktime - and that equation has become a false economy. So now the cost doubles and more, which then forces you down the higher cost route anyway, which blows the original 'budget'. That was what my last post was about. Lets face it, most have spent more on Chinese takeaways and in the pub in the last month, than those rods cost!
Chris hindsight is brilliant That's why this thread exists ! To analyse cost / performance of these rods ! It's not to discredit the supplier/manufacturer it's to discus whether cheap aftermarket rods and bolts are value for money ? In the case of Nige and Gurds the answer is no As has been said many times it depends on what the engine is being used for !
Very true. I would personally rather pay a little more now in the hope that I will save in the future. The saying, you get what you pay for, tends to be very true. Sorry to hear about Nige's and Gurds misfortune. Hope you both get your cars up and running asap.
Unfortunately, not everyone is a fotunate as you Micky. Some people have to do their best to make the most of what they have.
No, that wasn`t the budget. Don`t assume my budget was only what I paid for them. These had been selling at more than I got them for, but I happened to win them on an auction that finished at less than others had paid. My `max bid` was significantly higher. If I`d paid 300 for them, the `well you only paid 150 argument` wouldn`t be valid. Just because I happened to get them cheaper than other buyers doesn`t change that. We`ve all won stuff on eBay that went for less than we expected to pay. Usually that`s just our good fortune and unlucky for the seller. I still believe these rods are OK, but the bolts are the issue. The manufacturing tolerances were good. They were all very close to each other in weight and measurements when I checked them after the C clip failure. With genuine ARP`s they might never have caused me a single issue for the next several years at the modest power levels I`m running. That`s a moot point now, we`ll never know.
Of course it`s hindsight. NOBODY posted on my thread `Nige, you shouldn`t use those, they are cheap chinese rods, buy some proper ones...`. All the `well, what did you expect` commments have come AFTER they failed. ie. hindsight
These were the cheapest rods you could find, though? The absolute basement? The Maxspeeding rods are 275, so they weren't entertained: http://www.maxspeedingrods.co.uk/hi...ing-rods-with-arp-l19-bolts.html#.VCZp16akrCQ
