** VR6 Head Gasket Problems - Update ... Skimmed head & Soft GSF Bolts !!!! **

I've had the same problem with GSF bolts on a 16v lump. The Febi ones from AVS were fine though - don't know if they do VR6 ones.

 

Funny really (ironically) the first thing I did was read up on here about head bolts and I found an article about 'soft head bolts' from 3rd party manufacturers . So I thought OEM bolts only, but after throwing away 70 of OEM bolts that were on the engine for about a day I was rather miffed to say the least. But second time round I should not have even thought of GSF bolts, if I had OEM ones the car would be back together by now ! Hopefully I can get it sorted for the weekend.

 

Sweet article.

It looks like my head gasket may need doing. But with my lack of mechanical skills id probably not attempt it myself.

A few Q's
How long should it take a garage to do a compression test. Is this something that can easly be done if i buy the kit.

How much does it generally cost to get the head skimmed?

I understand the Headgasket takes approx 5-6 hours labour for an experiences mechanic?

Lastly, if my car runs a supercharger do i need to get a different type of gasket?? if so, where from?

Thanks in advance guys.
Taz

 

Also, since id be doing the gasket, would it make it cheaper to get the chains done to at same time.

T

 

Bolts go "soft" if they are stretch bolts - that's th reason why they feel soft, they are stretching. If they snap it's a different matter and one you really need to take up with GSF etc. - not their fault, it is the supplier who made them wrongly. And have your torque wrench checked - I don't even use mine as one now, it's just a breaker bar. Any engineering workshop should have a torque meter - if yours is out then do have it checked, and if it's wrong then it's a breaker bar, and borrow a proper torque wrench from a relative like mine, who oils his spanners before he even puts them away...

 

When mine went soft, they went so soft you could pull the par around with 1 hand. They were border line snapping. I honestly thought it was just a duff set, so i bought another set from GSF. Same thing again.

Set of OEM's and all was fine. NowI know stretch bolts go soft, but these were really bad. after measuring they were at least 1mm longer! Poor show.

 

Originally you were supposed (as some other manufacturers) to measure the bolt length to see if they could be used again, they are supposed to be longer once used, there was a tolerance as to the extra length. A good few years back they just stipulated they should be replaced every time

 

Think the pugs allow about 3mm in the length of used stretch bolts, think about the amount of yield on the LT head bolts, 90 deg + 90 deg run to temp then 90 deg then 600 miles + 90 deg again. Thats 360 degrees at the pitch of the tread.
1mm is nothing unusual in a stretch head bolt, you could measure the K series long bolts with a G clamp after use

 

I presume that's the engineers blue? (used to be a much darker blue back when I were a lad). Because if so, he's skimmed it at least twice and there is still a nasty bit of corrosion on the top right of your head. If he has taken a lot off it after two skims, your head bolts could be bottoming out, and so going soft. VW head bolts may be a bit shorter, hence not feeling soft...

 

Had a quick looks through some books, and the interweb
Dependent on the type of head bolt will depend on the amount of stretch, so I've removed the other post.
TTY- or 'torque to yield' stretch bolts will deform permenently. This is what VW use.

Something like an ARP will stretch a few thou, but not to it's yield point.

Having looked at the pitch of a std. vw head bolt, and seeing that 60NM isn't that tight, then the stretch is really working through the 180deg. tightening process. If the Pitch is 1.5mm, then the stretch should only really be around 0.75mm.
So, 1mm should be well on the upper limit of the amount of allowable stretch. There should still be some amount of elasticity in the upper part of the bolt for it to 'spring' back a small amount.

Not doubting what you're syaing with regards to stretch in head bolts, but to stretch 1mm, well before 180deg. tells me the GSF bolts I've had in the past have not been upto much.
The K series bolts How bloody long are those!

I also noticed the original GSF bolts were 10.9 grade and the VW ones 9.8. It may have nothing to do with it, but the VW ones worked lol

Were the bolts other people used the ones in the blue pack with white writing?

 

A compression test is really easy to do but you'll need 2 people, one to turn the engine over, the other to read the compression gadget ......

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-37442-Comssion-Tester-14X18mm/dp/B0001K9TV0/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=diy&qid=1223395286&sr=8-3

- Depressurise the fuel system (i.e. take out the fuel pump fuse whilst the car is running !).
- Undo the electrical feed to the coil pack (assuming it is on yours)
- Take out the the spark plug & HT lead
- Plug in your compression tester
- Turn over the engine a few times & read the meter to see the results.


It cost me 55 inc. vat to get the head skimmed, that was with the mechanic taking the valves out otherwise it would have been 30. I removed the cam shafts and the caps.

If your car runs a supercharger I believe you need to run a thicker headgasket to help lower the compression (could be wrong, I've read this in many places).

I think it is about 6 hours for a H-G change by a mechanic at a garage. You'll be looking at 500- 600-ish I reckon.

 

The pictures have a bit of a hue to them this being from the head being in direct sunlight, there was no real evidence of any blue anywhere. But yes you are right the engineer did have to go over it twice as the warp was quite bad (apparently ). Yes there was still a fraction of corrosion left after the skim, from one of the waterways in the middle of the block, you can see the areas on the 'before' pictures on page 1.

I was talking to someone at a local VW specialist garage the other day and found out something very interesting. He said that the VR6 oil coolers can degrade inside and hence allow for a bit of coolant loss. This is interesting so I'll be looking into this. But as far as I'm aware it is an OEM part only and not cheap either.

 

Thanks Ezy D,

I would attempt this myself, but limited mechanical skills and this being my only car it makes more sense to pay the money.

Just going to look into the correct headgasket and consider doing timing chains if its going to make doing that cheaper in long run as at 137k probably could do with one.

Thanks again

T

 

With the head off the engine the only extra thing to do to change the chain is to take the gearbox and flywheel off, then it's almost free access to the chains & tensioners. If you're getting the head done then you might as well get the chain & tensioners changed too.

The Vortex web link on the first page shows exactly what is involved for the work. The whole process is a big job and will take a lot of hours. But if your engine is at 137k then I'd advise it, especially if it is an OBD 1 engine. Definitely worth finding a good VW specialist garage to do it for you, it'll take you about 5 days to do it (taking it easy). I've never taken the gearbox off before and hence was rather reticent to do so, especially as it is hydraulically assisted.

You might as well get the clutch & release bearing changed too with the gearbox off !!!

Good Luck

 

Its OBD2 engine, if that makes any difference. The chains are not noisy, but thinking of it as a precaution. Clutch does seem fine but i see your point.

Will add up all costs and see if its affordable at moment.

Do you know the part numbers for all the bits i need at all? more so the chains and clutch parts.

T

 

Have a look here for parts (create a login and go from there)

http://www.vagcat.com/

You can find a decent clutch at GSF or Euro Car Parts at a good prices (CGTi discount too if you have membership !). I'd stick with OEM parts for chain and tensioners.

 

Thanks again mate.

For the headgasket. For what i can gather i need..
Headgasket.
Maybe new bolts.

For the clutch i need clutch and clutch release bearing.

For the chains..
I need chains... anything else? eg tentioner bolt etc.

T

 

Hi,

Sorry to drag this up from the past but just noticed the chain on yours is a single chain and on the one i'm about to rebuid has a duplex chain....

Whats that about?


Cheers

 

early and later engines.later have a simplex set up i.e one chain and the earlier a double.must have deemed that one chain was all that was really needed for the job.if changing tensioners etc maybe best upgrading to the mk4 stuff which i think is what the dealers only supply now?its an upper tensioner(big bolt,has a spring inside as well as oil fed)upper guide rail and all other guides inc lower tensioner.Maybe get the chains from gsf the dealers really are a fortune on them.i had some whippermans from gsf that are very good quailty.id deffo go with dealer head bolts they are expensive cost me a fortune when i did mine but worth every penny!think gsf get the victor reinz h gasket that the dealers have but if your going to keep it n/a maybe get the mk4 metal one?
you can convert from a double to single chain set up but youll need the sprockets off the end of the cams too to do that

 

as said get all the guides and tensioners from the dealers the plastic is a whole lot better quality.