Dry sump system what is available??

Whats the dry sump availability like for the 4 cylinder VW/Audi engine? I see the Roma mk1 has one.. but where from?

 

Rob T runs a dry sumpe setup too AFAIK, not sure where its from

 

Two types of these mainly - belt driven & gear driven.

Here's the Roma one - it's a cast alloy sump with a belt driven pump, which sometimes requires relocation of other ancillaries or belt runs (PAS/alternator):


I don't recognise that casting at all. I think INA has a selection of dry sump pan offerings.


The gear-driven ones are F3 related. This is s steel pan, OE-type origins - Razzer's from here:


The key difference is this uses an F3-style Titan dry sump pump driven off the intermediate shaft, which has skew gears cut into it - see inside the lower oil breather aperture:


Same shown on an F3 motor from here- very compact install:


The Titan kit is nice, but it just needs that skew gear adding. I don't think it relies on a scavenge system in the sump other than baffling, but a convo with them would clear that up: http://www.titan.uk.net


There are others such as the Formula Palmer stuff but I've a feeling this is far to high-end to go chasing (Mountune), or possibly Palmer's IP anyway, so not for gen sale. These use belt driven pumps:

 

Brian.G is developing one, be interesting to see his results

 

This is just an ordinary V belt driving the dry sump pump on the Roma car.
I would hate to think of the carnage if it threw or broke the belt. It may have some kind of oil pressure reservoir and ignition cut in the event of low oil pressure I suppose.

Certainly something to consider with these types of setup never the less.

 

I noticed that and winced, thought I was just being soft though

 

Hi guys
Well I have seen the spiess formula 3 engine brianG show us
As well as the newly come pictures on the btcc engine with similar setting

I did post the oettinger system integrated in the pan on the motorsport topic sometime ago

And seen the system issam from INA offer on vortex

Those are three different types the INA being what I would call a common dry sump setting

The reason why I m looking into that is mainly for the vaccum in the bottom off the engine
As the oiling pressure side is not so bad on trick oil pump oettinger sump (windage tray being part of it)
So no oil in contact with the crank and the sump is baffled so no oil starvation in corners

I even thought vaccum pump a diesel one or a proper moroso vaccum pump

What I wonder is if the F3 pump will make sufficient vaccum being a single stage (correct me if I am wrong)

I know that the common multiple stage pump should built enough vaccum
Please post your thought

Romain

 

Good thread Can we get pictures of each of the setups please as this is a subject that I have great interest.

 

I have a f3-derived system on my Ibiza. Titan pump mounted on the front of the engine, driving off a custom intermediate shaft, and a bespoke welded steel plate sump for transverse install. I have tried a cast mag sump also but it used to leak a lot so was binned. Fitted to give piece of mind for cornering on slicks, and also to run a large oil volume (7-8L) and no cooler necessary. Recently has also proved essential for fitting a full length flat floor under the engine for aero improvements.

I replaced the sump recently as one of the baffles came loose so have some recent pics I'll stick up

 

Looks very similar to mine. Point to watch on these pumps is a bronze gear that takes the drive into the pump off the inter shaft - these wear and need changing every so often - attached to the pump shaft with a roll pin

 

In application.

 

Here is a Drake Super Vee setup.

 

pics of my leaking sump from earlier this year - now fixed, and I also have a spare now just in case - internal baffle had cracked and had caused the weld at the left hand end to fail and leak (circled in red pen)

'sump plug' is brass with a metal guaze screen cylinder internally to stop any large pieces of debris going up the inlet pipe for the sump

 

INA offering - looks tidy.


And in application?


And INA sourced super vee pump explaining the in's and out's.

 

The single stage F3-type systems do give a significant crankcase vacuum

 

With scavenge pumps the volume flow should be around 3 times the pressure pump volume flow.
Some make the mistake of using too big a bore scavenge lines. Smaller bores will see less aeration.
Calculating flow velocity is also easy. You need the cross sectional area of the inlet port, and you also need the amount displaced per rev of the pump.
You can calculate this either with complex math, or by using clay to fill the space between the teeth(flank area) of one rotor.(old fashioned way).
A simple way would be to do it with the rotors fitted to case, and pack it down between case and rotor(one gap between teeth)
Drop this clay mould into some water to find water displaced by the flank section.
Multiply out this by the number of spaces between teeth to give you total volume per rev.
This will not account for the oil that returns between the rotors(minimal) or the oil that escapes between rotor sides/ends, and case. But it will be a good approximation for calculations.

You can then calculate the flow velocity using this figure, and the inlet/outlet cross -sections.

Reduce cross-sections/bore/ pulley ratio until you reach a figure that is no more than 1.8meteres per second.
This will ensure minimal cavitation.
This is also why I have always preferred the gear type oil pump(like the one in the older 058 block. Reason being is, the oil does not have to turn through 90 degrees when entering pump casing, like it does have to normally with the gerotor oil pump layout.
If you are using the gerotor oil pump, then lower flow velocity's have to be used as this 90 degrees will cause cavitation sooner because of this.

Flow velocities are to be calculated at the maxium ideal rpm range.

BG

Edit, here is good software for rotor design if you want to get serious>
http://www.simerics.com/index.html

 

Hi guys
well I am glad to see that many replys
and the enthusiasm in some off you regarding the topic
here is the oettinger dry sump setting


thank you for your really precise and technical reply Brian and I love the link you send I ll have a proper look later but had a quick glance it look really good

I was gonna speak about the different type of pump as gear or vane with this link I will be able to call them by their correct name

 

Bertils dry sump


Schrick dry sump

 

The bertils kit look good kind of similar to the drake with nice bracket
I thought they only made the F3 type but obviously not

Never knew that schrick made a dry sump pan