HELP PLEASE - I'd like a VAG M12 x 1.75 x 20 hex + captive washers - DO THEY EXIST?

Discussion in 'Tools, Equipment & Fasteners' started by Dave, Nov 19, 2015.

  1. MUSHY 16V

    MUSHY 16V Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    sure you get two or three types you get ones with the blue self locking non coated
    the zinc coated body and chassis combi bolts with the floating washer
    allen combi bolts

    the washer is to stop damage and aid tightening as it should have less friction

    the shoulder bolt is for suspension and mechanical things
     
  2. MUSHY 16V

    MUSHY 16V Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Aye bud "standard hardware catalog"

    not sure if the online ones have that not that I have looked
     
  3. Dave

    Dave *Very Smart* Pedantic Old Fart Paid Member

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    This is my bolt mod:

    [​IMG]

    This is where it fits:

    [​IMG]

    Now:
    We have a thread on here about greasing coil-over threads.
    So I e-mailed Sachs' agent as follows:

    Afternoon Michael.

    Thank you for the Haribo Gold Bears!:-)

    The suspension arrived today.
    I have two questions:

    #1 - Lubrication of the threads:
    The instruction manual does not mention lubricating the threads!
    Can you confirm that they are not to be lubricated?
    If lubrication is required please advise type required.
    I have various greases:
    Fuchs 'Pro RG2' - Synthetic Racing Grease
    Normfest 'Off-Shore' - Synthetic Ceramic Grease.
    GKN 'MotorSport' - MoS2 Type grease (CV Joints).


    He sent my question to Sachs and received this reply:

    ''We dont give a recommendation to the customer. If a customer want to grease the damper it is up to himself to do so.''

    To which I responded:

    Dear Michael.

    You appear to have done your best, but I am most disappointed with SACHS answer.

    I know from my own experience that it is a legal requirement to instruct the customer exactly how to use equipment that you have supplied to them. I have been interviewed twice in my career, by the UK Health and Safety Executive Lawyers, regarding accidents that occurred with equipment I had designed. In both cases I was exonerated as my instructions were clear and safe but the clients had not followed them.

    --------------------------------------

    There is another issue, this time with the M12 Hex Bolt used to secure the rear spring adjuster to the Golfs spring pan.

    #1 There are no instructions as to the torque to apply. This is a SACHS supplied item not a VAG part. I shall fit all of the fasteners supplied by VAG, which are used to fit the SRE suspension, to the torques specified in the VW Factory Workshop Manual. New parts have been purchased from the VW Dealer for every aspect of the installation to a total cost of over 200, even with my trade discount of 10/15%. I still believe that I should have received a discount from yourselves!

    SACHS is legally required to supply torque figures! These are TUV approved items and I am surprised that no one commented on this.

    My torque wrenches, I have more than one, are top of the range Britool items, as are most of my tools!

    If I do not need to torque the bolts shall I fit the bolts finger tight and perhaps use Loctite 243 Blue to stop them falling out?

    #2 The bolts appears to be chrome plated. Chrome plating can cause Hydrogen Embrittlement. This leads to surface cracks and hence, to a shortened fatigue life and thus, premature failure. The bolts are Grade 8.8 so SACHS obviously believes that this is a high strength joint or they would have supplied lower strength items. It is not recommended for fasteners in high strength joints.

    I intend to replace the supplied bolts with VAG items. These VAG bolts have a flanged head and a large captive washer. They are Grade 10.9 are M12 and will be similar to the M10 bolts shown in the photograph but the correct length, etc. I have not yet received them!

    I require SACHS to either inform me of the torque to apply, and what surface coating to use for this torque. IE: Loctite or MoS2 or Coppa-Slip or Light Oil or Dry

    Alternatively. The specification for the material used to manufacture the spring adjuster base so I can calculate the correct torque myself. I have designed thousands of high strength bolted joints in my career none of which have failed.

    ------------------------------------------

    Should I not receive an acceptable reply I may consider persuing the matter further!

    Sorry for the poor quality of the photos, they are from my phone as I cant find my digital camera!

    Kind regards,

    Dave.

    Photos and documents attached!


    I am enjoying this!
     
  4. m1keh Forum Member

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    I don't want to be picky here, but to me that statement from Sachs is perfectly clear and safe. You can grease them if you want to, but they do not need to be for normal safe operation, hence why they do not reccomend a grease.

    It could have been better worded though I agree.
     
  5. Dave

    Dave *Very Smart* Pedantic Old Fart Paid Member

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    I take your point Mike perhaps I am really objecting to the phraseology?

    Perhaps this is what they were getting at:
    It is not necessary to lubricate the threads(? because of the high quality of their trapezoidal shape ?) but that lubrication is acceptable.
    And, if that is the case, then which is the most suitable lube?
    Bilstein use rounded threads!

    Also the installation instructions are less than perfect.
    The instructions for removing the original and fitting theirs should fully reflect the instructions in the VW Workshop Manual.
    They do not do so in many instances and they use throw-away terms.
     
  6. MUSHY 16V

    MUSHY 16V Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    You could rewrite it for them just for fun
    Do SACHS have any partners that make lubricants ?

    The bolt is not under stress it is just to stop the adjuster coming unseated when the car is off the ground the rest if the time the weight of the car holds it in place

    I do admit the bolt looks a bit cheep though and I'd use a spring washer or loctite on it to stop it coming undone
     
  7. Dave

    Dave *Very Smart* Pedantic Old Fart Paid Member

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    I know the bolt is not under stress that's why I made the funny about finger tight and Loctite 243 Blue! Actually it is also stops the housing trying to rotate when you adjust the nut.

    Funnily enough I am going to offer to re-write it for them and tomorrow I shall do so. Offer that is. I want an SRE clutch, flywheel and releaser for my fee!

    I am not using their bolt I shall use the VAG one when modified as per my sketch. Of course I shall use Loctite 243. I already use it everywhere anyway!
     
  8. m1keh Forum Member

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    Exactly as I saw it - it is not necessary to use lube. But if you choose to then it's not going to effect the function of the coliovers.

    To specify the grease you need to choose what it is doing, In this situation it is purely as an anti-corrosive - as grit and dirt trapped in the grease from driving mean you have to wash off the grease before adjustment anyway.

    So if you just want an anti-corrosive layer actually some form of purpose built wax is probably a better option, waxoyl, dinitrol etc.
     
  9. Dave

    Dave *Very Smart* Pedantic Old Fart Paid Member

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    So what you are saying is that lubricants don't actually lower friction in threaded assemblies?[:s]

    Do they need corrosion protection?[:?:]

    [​IMG]
     
  10. MUSHY 16V

    MUSHY 16V Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    you do realize the Germans often don't have a sense of humor lol

    i think you should do that i know you enjoy a challenge:thumbup:

    also a bit daft them not recommending some form of protection
    you would think it would be in their interest to do this
    maybe they think it is not required who knows i still think it's daft though
     
  11. m1keh Forum Member

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    No, I am saying I would not adjust coilovers that have been used on the road- without first de-greasing/cleaning and then lubing them before adjustment. Therefore only place where the grease would remain is between the threads and a nut in a minimal amount. And if doing this and not leaving grease on long term for protection I would just use some normal engine oil for lube.

    Therefore the grease is purely providing an anti-corrosive property for most of it's liftime if you are leaving it on the threads.

    I believe your Coilovers do not need protection as they have a very good coating - however many people who are discussing the need for grease on coilovers have much cheaper coilovers without such a protective coating.
     
  12. Dave

    Dave *Very Smart* Pedantic Old Fart Paid Member

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    Just to clarify.

    In post #25 I mention the thread shape, thus implying mechanical considerations, hence friction.

    There is also the question of interface friction at the nut-nut and nut-spring areas to consider.
     
  13. Dave

    Dave *Very Smart* Pedantic Old Fart Paid Member

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    Yes Mike I have read the other thread as I stated below. I am only considering these Sachs units which are not mentioned in the other place.

    One thing the Sachs instructions do say is to clean the lower threads. Lower both nuts. Clean the threads above.

    How one gets to the threads behind the springs I don't know? If it's dry a brush will probably work, but if wet the crap will be spread about.
     
  14. Dave

    Dave *Very Smart* Pedantic Old Fart Paid Member

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    Smart Racing make this kit. Note the comments regarding steering effort!

    [​IMG]
     
  15. m1keh Forum Member

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    I would spray on some kind of traffic film remover all over then wash liberally with a hose with a concentrated jet to blast away everything. Then dry - either naturally, with compressed air or with wd-40 or similar water dispersant.

    I had however missed the spring to seat lube requirement. For a really professional job a nylon shim between spring seat and spring would suit this perfectly.
     
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  16. m1keh Forum Member

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    I struggle to see the steering effort reduction? Or is that the reason for the "!"

    Steering effort from the loaded areas is between Suspension Top mount spherical bearing and the ball joint?
     
  17. Dave

    Dave *Very Smart* Pedantic Old Fart Paid Member

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    A nylon shim is something to think about. Thanks.

    It's funny that you should mention WD40. One area the Sachs manual does not cover is fitting the new front strut into the bearing housing!

    The VW Workshop manual states that one is to clean out the bore of the housing, a 30mm circular wire brush should do the job, and clean with WD40, or similar products, that will "evaporate" quickly.

    The quotation marks are mine! Does WD40 evaporate quickly. I have 3 or four products from different manufactures that are similar to WD40 I shall have to test them to see which evaporates the fastest!lol
     
  18. Dave

    Dave *Very Smart* Pedantic Old Fart Paid Member

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    !Ah-ah! !You have begun to read between my lines.!
     
  19. MUSHY 16V

    MUSHY 16V Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    The kw's I have
    Have a stainless steel shim for the spring to slip on
    slip ring if you like
    You could easily make one with two hole saw's

    IMG_20151121_183652.jpg
    IMG_20151121_183641.jpg
    IMG_20151121_183627.jpg
     
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  20. Dave

    Dave *Very Smart* Pedantic Old Fart Paid Member

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    Stainless steel sounds good!
    Still needs some lube in there I recon.?

    Normfest 'Off-Shore' synthetic ceramic is a big favourite of mine. I especially like the bright blue colour!lol

    P.S. I could not do with KWs Justin.
    Why? Because I hate the colour purple. If I could ban the use of purple I would!
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2015

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