Isaac - 1992 MK2 Golf GTI 8v...

OK... a proper update this time, well sort of.

Completely stripped out all the gear linkages etc. etc. and then all back in again which resulted in quite a distinct improvement.

Still crunching reverse, and 1st also baulky just both are less so now.

Other gears seem spot on, but had that false hope before, usually when one thing's tweaked another suffers.

Probably kidding myself into saying what I want to hear but the improvement even it's small seems to suggest the problem is linkage related after all and not something internal.

Was building up to taking the box back out again, but the penny dropped even I do, I'd be none the wiser at what I was looking at to know if something was amiss.

Best I could hope for would be just the act of undoing it / redoing it up again would maybe fix something.

Will get there in the end!

Garage is absolutely bunged with stuff, so much so it usually took 30 mins to clear things away to work on the MK2, then another 30 mins afterwards putting it all back... couldn't be arsed with that so the 205's now wedged in the MK2's former corner and Isaac can now actually get in and out to the daylight. Maybe encourage me to get the finger out more.

Look closely and you can almost see him blinking in the sunlight.

 

There's a transmission specialist that's reasonably local to me, with a very good reputation.

Described the issues I'm having in a phone call and he immediately thought it was symptomatic of a friction plate problem.

One thing he did say was that it's not uncommon for new plates to be out of kilter, which struck a cord with me.

Think I previously mentioned elsewhere and maybe even posted a link to one of Sachs sites which I'd found trying to get to the bottom of what was wrong -

https://www.sachsperformance.com/en/sachs-service-clutch-diagnostics-and-troubleshooting

Anyhow, according to them it seems discs can easily suffer damage through bad transportation, storage etc. and they recommend checking for ' lateral run off' before fitting, which I didn't know about or even I had would have the kit to do anyway.

Now that the gearbox is out I'm going to have the seals and such done by the specialist even though they're fine, should've done it first time round but hey ho.

They seem to be the originals still in it and obviously a bit beardy now so I don't want to have to do this all over again anytime soon.

I'll get him to eliminate the box itself as the problem (hopefully) and if it isn't then take the plate out for him to do the check for lateral run off.

It's way too late now to bounce Sach or the retailer as I bought the kit last year but at least if it's not defective it''ll save me needlessly buying a new plate.

Getting as far as taking the gearbox out was problem free and straighforward, just a little time consuming, plus soul destroying as it wasn't that long ago I put all the same stuff on.... feels like going back 10 steps.

Getting the damn box to drop out was a bugger, seemed to snag on everything. Presumably that's just because it's new to me, would like to thinkwith practise it gets easier!

 

Mate, your motor is super clean. Looks amazing. Absolute ball ache for you taking it out again but will be nice to have your issue sorted. Good luck

 

I've never heard of clutch plates out of kilter before, that's a pain.

 

Cheers, only clean because everything's been either taken off and apart or replaced.

Plan was to get it all dirty again driving around this summer, but looking less and less likely now unfortunately.

It was only when I read about it did it even occur to me plates could be damaged, you'd think with the job they're expected to do they'd be a lot tougher.

The tolerance they quote of only 0.5mm seems incredible it is so little.

 

OK... probably owe Sachs an apology, I was being a bit harsh!

Turns out there is a portion in Bentley about checking the pressure and clutch plates before installation.

As I've done today, you can get away with using a straight surface and feeler gauge, though they do still say to do the 'lateral run-off' properly and you still need a special tool for that (Sachs will obligingly sell you one, a snip at only £450!).

Tolerances for the pressure plate are 0.2mm and as said above 0.5mm for the clutch plate.

Both mine are well within that.

The one thing I can't check with any accuracy is the inside of the flywheel , though visually and to the feel it doesn't seem anything other than perfectly flat.

The piccy of it below is a little unflattering as there's light shining from above, looks much better in reality.

I even invested in one of the ludicrously expensive (for what they are) plastic centering tools, you can see the witness mark of the push rod on the new thrust plate is nigh on perfect, so I suppose it worked.

At a loss now, nothing seems glaringly wrong and it was all assembled to the letter from Bentley inc. all the right torques / sequences, new bolts etc. etc.

 

No. 11, intermediate plate... just double checking it's located as I've done it ie. between bolts and pressure plate and not between pressure plate and engine block?

7zap shows I'm right but starting to doubt myself!

 

Cheers... was looking again at the old pieces yesterday and was starting to think I could see the shadow of the intermediate plate in the dirt on the rear of the pressure plate, must've been imagining things!

Did you see what I wrote on Copes thread, about the measurements from the bell housing to the different parts not matching up with those on BrokeVW, some of them by quite a bit?

 

Box away to the outfit I mentioned before for a once over / refurb. of seals etc. and with a bit of luck nothing more serious.

He's more or less sure the problem's with either one of or both the new pressure / friction plates because of the symptoms and marks.

The pressure plate's since been taken off and can be checked with a straight edge more easily now it's away from the car.

I'm still not finding it to be outside of tolerances, but then when you're getting down to 0.2 of a mm something a bit more professional than a steel rule is probably called for.

In one way it's a good thing and probably a much cheaper out come than an internal box issue I suppose, but still more than a bit ticked off at the waste of time, money and effort it's caused.

Went for Sachs first time around because of their reputation, but as I've had my fingers burnt with them now in the process of getting a LuK replacement kit (as ironically was the VW original being replaced).

A weeks work waiting ahead of mine and then whatever time it'll take to complete... might be on the road this summer?

 

What with the shift problems going on, I'd put a small blow out from the front pipe joint on the back burner until today.

Back under the car and seeing the heat shield holes for access to the shift lever box got me thinking... is it possible to misalign it?

It was all out to refurb. and I recall there not being any way you could put it back in again wrongly because of those guiding pins / holes.
I'm maybe wrong though, does it have adjustment built in and if so could this be contributing to the selector issues?

 

Clutching at straws again with the shifter box, was just a thought!

My problem is I'm new to all this, this clutch is the first I've ever changed so there's always the nagging doubt I've done something wrong despite me having since checked and triple checked everything.

Having said that it's a really simple process, specially since the box and engine were out of the car and I think it'd be hard to do it wrong even you tried.

I had Bentley beside me and everything went without a hitch inc. with placing the dowels.

I'm with you about the pressure / clutch plates and my initial reaction was to be dubious that one, other or both are defective, but the guy at the engineering shop has a lifetime of experience so would be arrogant not to accept what he says 100%.

I thought it was telling just how much emphasis Sachs put on checking plates etc. before fitting, even supplying a tool for the job.

Transport and storage seems to be the main issue and it must be enough of a problem that they feel the need to cover it.

I got mine via AutoDoc... there's nothing to suggest it was damaged, but it did cross Europe to get here and you'll never know how long it was in storage / handled while there.

The pressure plate is 3082 149 436 and the friction plate 1862 518 343.

Again have checked and definitely the correct bits plus the ones in the box were infact what was meant to be there.

Cope mentioning his not being able to get the measurement quoted on BrokeVW and then mine turning out to also not match (but interestingly corresponding with Copes) makes me wonder if there's maybe a US / European variation he wasn't aware of at the time of writing what he did, it was nearly a decade ago.

I've a new LuK kit ordered and the box itself should be back in a week or two, can't see there's anything else I can do now other than put it all back together and hope it works.

 

LuK kit picked up today which gave me a chance to compare things with the Sachs.

The old one that came out of the car was a VW item but also marked LuK, at 79K it may or may not have been the original.

Wasn't aware but LuK now seem to be under the Schaeffler group umbrella... both with good reputations, but then so do Sachs!

First surprise was the new LuK is identical, and I mean absolutely identical to the decades old original. Nothing appears to have been changed in all that time, wonder are they even using the same machines?

The Sachs on the otherhand is more intricate if you get what I mean, more components and less chunky, but despite that on the surface of it a very slightly better quality / made item.

The second surprise was realising the splined collar of the Sachs friction plate isn't fixed, unlike the LuK that is rock solid stationary.

There's some kind of mechanism that allows the Sachs one to move slightly through a twisting action and in and out plus rock left / right.

All very small movements but noticible and easily done with finger pressure.

There was nothing on the box or description when bought to say this is the same thing, but they do talk about an 'Xtend' system on their latest clutchs that supposedly gives an element of self adjustment to compensate for wear and lengthen friction plate life.

Possible this is it, maybe the old original flywheel doesn't work well with this new modern tech?

The LuK as said already is very much an old school make up, perhaps that in itself will solve the problem?

 

I wish i could add some help to this.... but hopefully the LUK one will sort these issues. Simplicity being the key to success

 

Thanks, fingers crossed.

Read some more since, the 'Xtend' gubbins is in the pressure plate and definitely not on this MK2 one so barking up the wrong tree!

Be curious to learn more about why their splined collar has so much built in movement though.

 

The disc probably fits some other / newer cars as well as the mk2, and it would take some of the sharpness out of the clutch.

 

That would make sense... Wonder would even that new feature be enough to make the old flywheel complain?

Probably like most people had a fair idea of how a clutch works but never gave it much thought. Now that I've had to dig deeper it's brought it home just how much precision's involved. Before I'd have imagined there'd being a large gap opening up during disengagement but in reality it must be fractions of a mm.

 

Gearbox came back yesterday.

New seals etc. done saying as it was already out and mad not to.

Apparently also some wear to something minor inside that I didn't quite understand, even it was explained to me.

Replaced and should all be good for the rest of my lifetime.

Nothing found that would account for the selection issues, he repeated his money was on it being the Sachs clutch.

Started putting the LuK in today... hope he's right, soon find out.

BrokeVW's 'pressure plate trick' in action -

 

Congratulations on getting the gearbox back. Any tips greatly appreciated with the clutch as I will need to do this.
What is the ring spanner on the bolt for?