The 16V G60 thread.

Hi mate,

Very interesting ideas above regarding the belt routing.

Not much progress from me because I've been too busy at work and also getting the G60 Syncro ready for its respray.

Got a load of freshly powder coated subframe parts and stuff to go onto the project MK2 (16V G60) tomorrow though. I want to get the car roadworthy so I can MOT the damn thing!

Trev

 

Keep pluging at it Trev!, I`m pulling the engine when it warms up a bit, cable change `box is going in (should have done that from the start..), Air to Water intercooler gear will be fitted at the same time hopefully.

 

Sorry to keep hijacking your thread Trev but maybe it will encourage you to do yours!!

Took my old engine out of the corrado over the last few days with the help of another mod on the corrado forum.

Changed the 5th cog on the valver gearbox for a mk III tdi one, got most of the ancils all fitted up and it is now hanging in my garage whilst I wait for the rear engine mount.

I need to get the crossmember and rad support panel blasted and powder coated then I need to revisit the intercooler as the merc sprinter is too big without cutting and I don't want to do that.

Still need to order the water hoses and then sort the breathing hoses but, I do now know for definite that the original VW motorsport 16vG60 item uses a 16v block breather.

Some pics of the nearly finished block

 

Right, bit of an update.

The engine is all together, including G-charger and the G60 A/C intercooler (which I stress is a temporary measure), and will start and run on Megasquirt (I'm using the original Megasquirt 1, using the V2.2 board if I remember right... or was it 2.3?) and it will actually start quite willingly, which is nice. Whether cold or hot, it usually only takes a few cranks to get it going.

I'm using MSnS firmware. I'd have to go back and look to remind myself which version. Spark trigger is just the basic way using the distributor hall sender at the moment.

There is no idle control valve fitted at the moment.

When the engine is warming up from cold it behaves itself quite nicely. During this time it will idle quite steadily. Not very steadily of course but quite bearable.

The trouble starts when the coolant temperature reaches approximately 70C. The engine will suddenly start to hunt very harshly. With the current throttle screw setting, it would hunt from about 1300rpm downwards. Engine sounds a bit harsh and rattly when it plummets down as it hunts. I don't know if this is just the sound of the 16V engine when it's near stalling, possibly extra noisy due to the four branch, or is the engine being noisy because of forged pistons (someone told me they're quite noisy when engine is not hot). Anyway, that's something to worry about later. Basically the idling when it reaches this temperature is just awful. Trying to wind out the throttle screw to try to make it more stable at a high idle RPM doesn't seem to have any effect (doesn't lift the RPM much).

Around this time the kPa is something like 34 to 40.

As the engine warms up the mixture has been registering as quite rich on the Zeitronix at around 12:1. When it starts to go bonkers and hunt, the AFR bounces from one extreme to another. The wideband lambda sensor is located beneath the gearstick just after the four-branch collector.

I'm trying to be methodical with this but it's difficult when it's like this. It behaves quite alright during the warm-up period in the warm-up enrichment wizard, but starts to throw a wobbly when the arrow hits the bottom of the highest temperature box (71C or whatever it was). At this point I try to adjust the VE values in the boxes that are highlighted during this time (corresponding to around 1300rpm and 34 to 40 kPa) but little effect takes place. Just seems to be bonkers no matter what values I'm putting in, and at the moment I'm totally blind when it comes to tuning these values because I've never done so before.

Some more random information as I think of it: I'm using Bosch 440 injectors. Calculated REQ_FUEL is 7.1ms. MS ECU is taking MAP from one of the G60 throttle body 'nipples'. The boost return on the throttle body is vented to atmosphere and presumably this should be okay given that charge air is at higher pressure than atmospheric? It's what I did on my 8V G60 anyhow, when I deleted the boost return. I have the other G60 TB 'nipple' connected to the FPR. The MS has been set (via the ini file) to use the Zeitronix transfer function and so the Zeitronix AFR is properly reflected in MegaTune. I don't think that I've got it set to do any closed loop work with the AFR at the moment.

At the moment the ignition angle is fixed at 10 just to get it to idle although I do need to check this properly using a timing light again.

I get the impression that it should be possible to get it to idle reasonably well without an ISV, and therefore I am assuming that I have a serious basic setup problem that I need to resolve before I even think about fitting an ISV. Furthermore I understand that KeithMac and / or Martyn had to perform some firmware changes before a two-pin ISV could be used. I understand that this is something to do with a limitation in the ISV's useful PWM duty cycle range (I read somewhere that the ISV starts to open up again below 25% duty, or something like that. I need to go and read more old threads about this).

Edit: I've just been having another fiddle with it outside and it really does seem like the harsh hunting starts quite suddenly, rather than coming on gradually, at about 70C. I have noticed that all of the warm-up enrichment tables go up to 71C. So I am wondering if the enrichment suddenly turns off at 71C and then I get the hunting.

By the way, a really stupid question. In the warm-up enrichment wizard, 100% enrichment basically means no chance to the standard map value, am I right? The table initially starts off quite high at cold obviously but the 71C table is at 100%.

Trev

 

For the hell of it, I fooled the MS ECU into thinking that the CLT was at 66C by replacing it with a fixed value resistor. I then started the engine knowing that the coolant was actually at about 66C.

Left it to run for about five minutes, during which time I'd have expected it to start hunting harshly, but it did not.

Plugged the MS back into the proper CLT sensor to reveal that the coolant is at 78C. It'd definitely have been hunting at that temperature.

So fooling MS into thinking that the CLT is lower should hopefully give me a clue. Time to read more of the MegaManual.

Trev

 

Just some pictures of the beast:








The small air-con G60 intercooler came out of my G60 Syncro that has been stripped for repainting, and it's only in there as a temporary measure. When this engine goes into the Syncro the engine will have the usual 16V G60 throttle body elbow (due to the LHD ABS brake servo) and I am hoping to find a way of having a front mount intercooler and yet retain air conditioning.

Trev

 

oh thats porn right there Trev.

 

how strange, the last few days i have been reading up on this conversion. i get to this thread via google. and its still active....within an hour....lol

i will build one of these one day

dream engine

 

Looking good Trev.

As for the running issues I don't know squat about MS but it does appear from what you have written that as soon as the engine comes off warm-up then it runs like a bag of poo.

Is there a smell of fuel in the exhaust gases when it is hunting? If so then look to overfuelling; if not then I would suggest that the engine is underfuelling, as when it comes off warm-up it loses some advance and the extra fuel that comes with it (Guess based on how stuff normally works)

As for what it isnt, FPR must be ok as it is fine during warm-up, following on from that injectors must also be ok.

Does the MS switch to using lambda values after the warm-up phase?

 

The good news is that it now idles reasonably stable and no longer 'hunts' when warm. I think you were right when you suggested lambda values, Yan. I had the AFR correction set to kick in at 71C and this made it go bonkers because it just isn't set up yet. Turned that off and now is all fine.

With the engine then idling happily and warmed up I was able to adjust the idle VE figure in the VE table and, as I decremented it, the AFR would increment. This is good as it's exactly what it should do and shows that things are working!

I also greatly reduced the horrible rattling noise I had at low RPM by, erm.... fitting one or two missing exhaust manifold bolts

 

Crap phone video in 3GP format

 

'nipple'


get a proper 180 degree fitting on the end of that fuel rail will you.

 

Oh yes - it's on the list of bits to get next time I order from Think Auto. In fact I was thinking it would be good to replace that length of pipe with a completely rigid section if I could get such a thing made up. Then the flexible hose would connect near the FPR.

I knew the word 'nipple' would arouse you.

 

the problem i had with idle after warmup was the tps became flaky if you just touch the throttle it would read wot then flicker about once i changed to mapdot it solved all my problems

 

Hi

did you finish this out?

 

It's still going on, but I don't have enough time at home to work on it at the moment. The G60 Syncro shell is coming back soon though and the engine will go in that eventually.

 

Any updates?
Also when importing the bbm kit do you get stung for import duty, vat etc?

 

Right, here's the current status. Basically, not too brilliant at the moment. There are just so many issues that I don't really know where to go next with it.

The chassis itself has been pretty much rebuilt in terms of brakes, bushes, etc. with everything nicely powder coated. I rebuilt the fuel pump assembly with brand new rigid fuel lines. From of view of the chassis the car is pretty much ready for the MOT, except that I simply cannot get the brakes to bleed properly. This is the subject of another thread.

Also cannot get the 02A gear selection to work properly but I guess I just need to spend some more time fiddling with that.

The engine is now fully built up and the intercooler I'm running is the small top-mount one from the Syncro. This intercooler fits neatly in the space above the gearbox, with the throttle body bolted straight to the inlet manifold. At a later stage (if I ever get that far) I'll have a proper FMIC and the BBM TB elbow will be used. It is running the charger.

I've had it idle on the drive for long periods and I've had to cure some oil leaks. I think they're all cured now. It was either coming from a poor seal at a fuel pressure sender, or due to loose sump bolts.

Engine is now running on MegaSquirt, but only just. I am currently running without an ISV (use of an ISV is the subject of another current thread of mine) and I can get it to do a reasonably good idle at around 1000rpm when the engine has fully warmed. The problem though is that I can only seem to prevent the engine from hunting wildly if I do the following: (1) In the basic spark settings, I have to have it set so that my real (i.e measured with a digital timing light) timing advance is something like 31 degrees. Presumably this is a pretty bad advance to have at idle. If I correct the values so that my advance at idle is something sensible like 10 degrees, it'll not want to idle very well at all. (2) I have to have my idle VE bins set to around 40% or above in order to stop it hunting, and the lower the spark advance, I think the higher these need to be. These VE values result in an idle AFR that can be down as far as 12.5:1. I guess that this isn't going to do me any favours at MOT time. I was trying to get it to idle with a higher AFR, in the vain hope that the white smoke from the exhaust and puddles of moisture on the floor (which occur both at the tip of the exhaust and under the car where a join is) are due to rich AFR, not a coolant problem.

And what is making things difficult is that I have two possible engine issues:

(1) There's a fair amount of water and white smoke from the exhaust. I've now put a marker on the coolant tank to see if this goes down.

(2) When the engine is fully warmed up, there's a rather loud 'whop..whop..whop' noise from the area of the camshaft sprocket on the head. The noise occurs at a rate of say two or three times a second. I really don't know what this is. I don't know what to do in order to determine what it is, and I am not sure if I should be running the engine and fiddling around with MS settings while that problem exists, so I feel really stuck at the moment.

In addition the fuel pump has got VERY loud. Maybe I should have just forked out for a brand new one when I rebuilt the assembly.

Trev

 

if its the same gearbox tower as mine i can talk you through getting it right

might be intrested in a new bush for the shift cable too http://the-corrado.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=66959

 

hi, which block did you use for this setup? also where did you get your oil feed for the charger from? thanks