Only one thing for it guys........ we all go to Stealth! On the same day this time?...... Pity the mags are only interested in the 20vT these days, would be nice to get the cars timed at Bruntingthorpe as well. Edited by: G_V_K
Get real, absolute crap. Compare barney and speedo's graphs with mine when we all went to stealth on same day (well most of us anyhow, others, i.e you, had mysterious car problems and conveniently dropped out). Same 276 cams (not MEGA spec), only difference being TB's - massive increase in midrange with TB's and 7hp more at top. Independent results taken on same day on same rollers. Fact. And, as I have subsequently found out when stripping old engine down last weekend, my engine compression was well down on cylnder 2 due to piston erosion nearly breaking through the top ring land. When fresh, this engine made 217bhp and 170ftlb, and this is well above any kjet car I have ever seen on 276 spec cams/head etc. TB's and mapped ignition, if set up correctly, will blow Kjet out of the water any day of the week - thats why proper race engines use them as well as cars like the M3. And, as I have said before, the only golf-type cars I have ever been beaten by when official timing has been out (and not y' best mates watch) have been other TB equipped cars or turbo's, never a kjet car - of course your welcome to prove otherwise ! Edited by: RobT
think the barny speedo robt graph i did ended up on garys site, i can redo it if you need to see it barneys seems to make power later than the 9a cars, wonder if that is a long rod ABF phenomenon, need to see ess threes graphs again to compare
The graphs are still there in the 'tune up' section Note what a 'marginal increase' TB's give on similarly specced cars - 20 lbft better at 5K - and without the lumps and bumps you get in the curves with kjet Rob
RobT.........the reason I didn't make the day was because whilst on route my car was very much down on power due to the fact the flywheel bolts had failed except for 4 of them. As a result my car wouldn't have given anywhere near the power it should have. Secondly it's not CRAP what I said..Are you the authority on building 16V engines..NO I DON'T THINK SO. Secondly what you seem to forget regarding your comments on TB's is the cost for what are marginal gains. I mean 7BHP won't set the world alight and the extra torque again is marginal compared to a well set up K jet. Anyhow your car is a case in exception.... with loads of cash thrown at it....hence the results I'd be pretty p---ed off if my car hadn't produced what yours has. I mean come lets see how much it's cost.We all know TBS and stand alone mapping isn't cheap. My argument has always been value for money. K jet is crued I know but it can be made to work up to a certain point quite well. As I have said before all the cars I have seen on TB's have produced less power than they should have. MattD has had problems with his set mainly due to the exhaust (we think) but for what has been spent I would personally would have not bothered. When I went to Stealth in the summer even Vince said the same things and said not to bother.
Doode, no need to chuck y' teddy out. I'm not an 'authority' on building VW 16V engines, but then no one in the UK is, but as an independent person without alliances to any particular tuning shop, are able to have a reasoned discussion and make conclusions based on the data presented to me Personally I would have said a 20 ftlb increase in the midrange and 7hp at the top end was pretty good over an already pretty well tuned pair of valvers. Oh and it will tick over and drive in traffic like a std car as an added bonus Yes TB's and ECU's cost money, but so does dyno time (here we go again) - others have tried to replicate your admittedly impressive setup and failed. So it must be down to the hours of dyno time and careful setup by TSR - which dont come cheap - 250 a day at my local rollers - how many days has yours had on TSR's rollers, as their 'development car' for gratis ? So if average joe wanted a car like yours he would have to pay this - so I would think it aint actually that cheap to do and perhaps not such great 'value for money'. But whatever, you clearly think TB's are not worth the bother so fine, your choice, obviously the whole of the motorsport tuning industry are wrong. Best wishes Rob
@ Rob. But with the points he makes! Ian, i didn't get a disk of Vince.. i was too concerned about getting a functioning car over to Germany that same day for a trip around a real track... not that Castle Coombe and Mallory aren't real, but getting out of a multi-storey is more complicated!
I'm yet to be convinced by throttle bodies and i admit that having recently done the conversion myself at great cost. I'm not saying they don't work but even Vince told me he's never seen great figure with them. The lads and i have just completed some exhaust mods which I'm hoping will launch my car past the 200bhp mark when i get it mapped on 2nd september, I will keep you all informed. I don't think Ian's talking crap and he certainly would never have pulled out of a rolling road day without good reason. Believe me MrT you wouldn''t have wanted him there with the flywheel poised to exit the car at 7500rpm. Please choose your words a bit more wisely as it's easy to offend
'normal K-Jet?' LMAO..... any flywheels fell off again lately? Come on Ian.. Your car is far from normal and unfettled.
Fact is (IF) an engine wants to breath, and you allow it to do so via induction and exhaust it will make power. Where engines fail to make the hoped for power it is not induction related in the case of t'bodies of 45mm bore size for example, but engine related. It just does'nt want to breath. DTH bodies on a proper valver engine have dyno'd extremely well. Yep a K-Jet car can be made to just break the 200bhp barrier, but they have all been very sensitive to low rpm load and stalling on all of those I've seen. Big cams on a plenum, K-Jet lift plate... its asking a lot. Drivabilty and area under the curve is important, and mapped t'body and ignition will always outperform something as limited as K-Jet and dissy. (so long as its mapped well of course!)
Talking cams... CAT Cams make a great range of 16v products with a superb reputation in motorsport circles in Europe.. Schrick quality and beyond but not Schrick prices.. Have a browse by Cat Cams for what they have to offer.. email me if interested Edited by: badger-bill
We made 180bhp and about 150 lb/ft torque on the 9a that we've just built for my g/f's Mk2. The cams I used are VAG regrinds done by a company called Autosprint in Brum, 180 plus the standard cams. Used a 264 inlet and a 265 exhaust. Very slight lumpy idle but nothing major, very useable power and pulls like a train, in a different league from a 1.8KR. Vince has the power plots as he set-up the engine. I think there's still a bit more there as we're still running a Magnex 2" exhaust (to be changed soon for a 2 1/4"). Even though I have nearly double the bhp and torque figures in my 20vT I really enjoy driving this car with a well sorted 16v lump!
Cheers Matt...... Rob......I purchased my valver in 1998. It ran up until 18 months ago as a 1.8 with just a few mods. The fuelling was fettled with then when running a flowed head manifiold and exhaust.It did many trackdays in this form. When it went 2 litres it was again fettled with mostly via the metering head and optimising fuel pressure at source to optimise the original system. It hasn't spent hours and hours on the RR but it has been on just a few RR shootouts. Vince at Stealth again put the icing on the cake with the WarmUp Reg Mod and it gave those figures in May. There is nothing radical about it's spec it's just gives it's (almost)optimum potential. I agree that TB's are a step forward in technical terms and delivery but like everything they need expert fettling by people who know their stuff. Some tuners are more adapt at getting those results. Tuning is a never ending evolution but with my car it has now stopped as I can't justify going any further even though I'd like too. Looking at my particular graphs they are pretty smooth in it's delivery for Kjet car but like everything it could probably be better Ianb
What I can't understand is Ian, In my rather long THREAD about my dissapointing experience with the 268/276 cam set, It was agreed your car with it's 2 litre and 268/276s had evolved with TSR's help over the period of a year or more!!!, now you're saying it hasn't spent hours and hours on the rollers, it doesn't add up mate. If I'm honest it was the way you made it seem as though all you do is get the Schrick cams, throw them in, put a flowed head on to a 9A block and hey presto you get 200bhp and 160lb/ft from a 16v that I went the route I did... Edited by: G_V_K
To defend the throttle body argument... need we look further than the amount of PROPER 16v race cars that run the setups. I'm sure most of us saw the Mk2 in the Golf+ in the VW cup that was running Jenveys on STOCK internals and MILDER than factory cams. If there wasn't a significant gain, even in stock spec, why the heck would they have spent the money? IMO, I don't think they're very expensive anyway. It's the mapping, tweaking, mapping and more mapping and tweaking that makes the bill rise. But how many hours do the properly setup k-jet cars spend on the dyno. Obviously, there's more to ianb's car than meets the eye - that much was obvious when GVK's car (one of the strongest standard valvers on here judging by the graphs) ran an *apparently* identical setup and turned into a sportsbike in terms of torque; as he says, it doesn't add up. In any situation, I'd rather be running a properly setup ECU that can account for knock sensors, air temperature change etc etc etc etc. It's definately worth the money. Any car that hasn't made significant increases with ITBs hasn't been mapped properly, it's that simple. It's all a matter of trial and error. I've just had my 4th mapping session and each time, I'm gaining more and more power and torque and it's still not running 100% (although I'm pretty picky). About mattd's car - if it has a crap exhaust, a good system makes a huge difference. I swapped from sh1t 2.25" to custom 2.5" with my ABF and was actually laughing it made so much difference
Both Bill and I have converted engines without TB's to engines with and in both instances, despite running different ECU's and using different RR operators, we both achieved +37bhp - this is real and measured, not dreamt up. My car, 2yrs ago, went from 180 - 217bhp. It subsequently started to eat the top of #2 piston and as a result dropped compression and dropped to the 199 as measured at Stealth (and 200 at my local rr). But yet people, Vince included, still say they dont work., even when presented with such real data. Rob
ive writen to both PVW and the Golf mag at the begining of the year about this...maybe ill try agin Its got to be a good feature...a rolling road shoot out and then a blast around the track to prove time plus a sprint. I think its about time we started to hound the mags again dont your think guys and girls
