budget throttle bodies management

but what kind of money is it involved!? and who does the remaps... cause i believe that has to be something that is going to take a lot of time...

 

great stuff looks like thats a cheap way for me to go cheers

 

Good Post Louis

Some brief points (I just wrote about three pages of answers and lost the bloody lot when I tried to post it) [:^(] so here goes again only shorter.....

1. Any system should be re-mapped when changes have been made to the motor. The main part of the cost is the dyno time which is similar anyway, regardless of system type. If you plan to do your own mapping with a DTA system or whatever, then you MAY save youself some money. The chances are high though that a good, professional, mapper will get the job done better and in much less time than you will yourself and his charge would therefor be offset by greater dyno costs doing it yourself. You may view my advice as biased as I have an 'axe to grind' but experience pays in all professions- we all know that! Mapping is not as easy as people seem to think and I know of countless tuning people who have bought the hardware to do it and given up- so I guess that says something.

2. Mapping costs vary from 250-400 depending upon the job and the price of the dyno. I hope to get my own workshop up and running early next year so this should take out this variable to some extent. I do not have any sort of monopoly on re-mapping chips and will be happy to advise a fellow professional mapper in your area if he needs help with anything such as finding a rev limiter in the data (often hard to find, see). I do not wish to start a 'mapping school' though so, if you are minded to buy an emulator for your own development, don't expect too much help with it!! This is an offer to professional mappers only really, as they should understand what I tell them quickly.

3. I am not here to plug my wares (I am busy enough anyway) and I map all systems be they DTA, MoTeC, Emerald etc. or old Pug ones from the breakers. There is just added satisfaction when a good job done has cost as much as a pork pie and a balloon! I am, myself, quite poor and have enjoyed tuning my own cars over the years with little or no money myself so an opportunity to have a really nice setup for sod all appeals to me too.

4. Be careful with bike throttles as the closed angle is too steep for a car to operate well on. Car throttles tend to have a closed angle of around 3-4 deg but bike ones tend to be 8-15 deg. This makes the throttle jumpy at small openings due to the greater orafice opened by a given throttle angle change when using bike throttles. Bikes operate with very low vacuum at low rpm and they respond better with a steep initial angle. Cars are not the same unfortunately- attractive though bike setups are- they are not ideal.

5. It seems to be the luck of the draw if your ECU has a bung and a chip socket or not. It does not seem to matter if it's a Pug one or a Citroen. The same goes for if it is immobilised or not.

6. Competition systems do sometimes have a little data logging which can be handy in competition but is little use for the road. Horses for courses.

7. Road car systems do, however, have bits and pieces in their control strategies that make them more refined and suited to road car use. Again, Horses......

8. These ECUs have something you'll not find on any competition one for under 3 grand and that is a knock sensor which actually has it's sensitivity adjustable in the chip data. This is handy if you want knock protection when the fuel you buy is not so good (tanker drivers do sometimes put the wrong stuff in the station tanks you know....) and, because the sensitivity is adjustable throughout the rpm range, short slipper-skirt piston noise does not mean the ECU pulls all the advance out for no good reason...

9. These old 8P ECUs are great and really flexible. I have used them on cars as diverse as a Saxo and a V8 BMW on slide throttles. I even looked at useing one to control a dyno!

10. If you need any advice regarding anything Engine Management just e-mail me. Please don't expect an immediate reply though, I am generally very busy.

11. There is a different ECU (Bosch) that is suited to turbo and supercharged applications but more about that later I guess...

12. Later VWs have a crank sensor ring and sensor in the block. The offset is different but it can still be used.

13. A car (Saxo) so equipped won every single stock hatch rallycross round this year. Another (20 16v Nova), using the same, came second to Chris Evans' 60,000 Nissan super touring powered Micra last year in the mod saloons and his ECU only cost 15 quid! So these things can be made to perform every bit as well as any comptition system.

Time for bed now folks....

Again, good post Louis (nice job too- altogether)

And Nick (Wilson).... get your bloody finger out and get the 'Budget' racing again!

 

great post wayne

couple of questions, would a clever throttle linkage that reduced the ratio at low throttle angles get round this bike throttle body sensitivity or are we doomed to snatchy low angle drivability due to the inherent design

also, have you used the ABF ecu [mk3 16v] as this looks like it has all the right sensors and should plug straight in to many 16vers using the later block

 

Finger is right out ,"over budget" will be out next year; honest guv.

 

Prof, You can improve matters a little but, as the throttle pot is mounted on the spindle the angualar movement of it is small too and you are asking a lot of the ECU to expect precision over this range. This is also the area where precision is needed most. If you want it to drive nice as well as give power then get some Jenveys or BMW throttles on it which have a shallow closed angle. If it's a racer that only needs to get on and off a trailer at light throttle then go for your free bike TBs.

 

I have used the ABF type ECU on VW cup cars before. They will run on the TPS if the internal MAP sensor 'fails' so should, in theory at least, work with throttle bodies. The first job is a bit of a 'suck it and see' kind of thing but it may work OK. The trouble is the time taken to arrive at the solution can be long.

 

hmmmmmmmm, bike throttles no go [:^(] anyone breaking an M5???
Edited by: prof

 

Hey Wayne, are you the same guy with the black mk1 with porsche wheels? Me and Dalj came to look at a cam once.

 

thanks for the post wayne,I think this answers your question tubs
(Quote Wayne)
A car (Saxo) so equipped won every single stock hatch rallycross round this year. Another (20 16v Nova), using the same, came second to Chris Evans' 60,000 Nissan super touring powered Micra last year in the mod saloons and his ECU only cost 15 quid! So these things can be made to perform every bit as well as any comptition system.

 

wayne could i use a logarithmic pot on the bike tbs to sort out the "gentle driving" problem, electronic guru here seems to think that would work ok

 

You could use a Linear Pot, and then use a Log cct inbetween. this would allow great accuracy on the curve required.

 

wtf. is a logarithmic pot?
is it to put exponential flowers into?

 

or maybe it gets you exponentially high?

 

Log Pot is a variable resistor, which varies in resistance in a logarithmitic scale, instead on a linear scale.

Linear pot - 1 turn 1 ohm from 0 to 10

LogPot - first turn 0.5ohm, second turn 1 ohm, third turn 2 ohms etc.

This gives the a greater precision at the lower end of the scale, but not much at the top end.

Log pots are used in volume controls.

The use of a log pot in this application would attach to the throttle postion sensor, this would then give greater accuracy in the nearly closed position. giving a smooth drive.

 

bwahahaha

 

http://www.sun-diagnostics.com/intl/en/pdf/html/full_peugeot .html

http://www.sun-diagnostics.com/intl/en/pdf/html/full_alfa.ht ml

http://www.sun-diagnostics.com/intl/en/pdf/html/full_citroen .html

Heres a list of cars with M3.1 and also 8P Might be of help for anyone wanting to do the conversion
Edited by: Sam_Rallye

 

A log pot (no Nick, that's not a toilet) would only be suited if it were inverted, so, rather than progressively increasing the rate of change would progressivly decrease. The throttle area opening is large to begin with for a given angle change so, to prevent that first load part of the map being very steep and therefor not ideal (interpolation is linear between sites though the general trend of a map is usually curved) the first bit of movement you would want the trace to track quickly across many sites. This may make keeping the throttle steady on a particular part of the map difficult at best.

 

so with a log pot would we need the most sensitivity at small angles or wire it up the other way so the sites are stacked up more at wot

just imagining a graph of VA/throttle angle it's going to be very steep at small angles and level off towards WOT, so i'd imagine we'd need more sites at small angles to try and capture these rapid airflow increase for small angle increases. help my brain hurty

 

TT you out there mate, any wise words on this?