Mk3 8v into Mk2 1.3

Discussion in '8-valve' started by PhilRyder, Jul 31, 2021.

  1. PhilRyder

    PhilRyder Paid Member Paid Member

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    And so it begins..................... [:|]

    I have searched high and low for a how to thread on a straight swap of a standard Mk3 8v into a Mk2 but cannot find one. All the ones out there (including here) seem to involve head swaps or wide track or other dilutions of a pure bog standard swap. So I have created this thread with the intention of it being a complete resource for those who want to do the same. I will be asking lots of questions and will need lots of help.
    Furthermore, this will be a slow(ish) burner. The Mk2 won't be taken off the road until at least September or October. There is much learning and planning to be done.

    This was delivered today by the owner (and then I gave him a lift home) saving me the hassle and expense of organising insurance etc.

    IMG_20210731_155527.jpg
    IMG_20210731_155550.jpg
    IMG_20210731_155558.jpg

    My son was inspecting his wheel, not mooning :lol:
    IMG_20210731_155607.jpg
    IMG_20210731_155616.jpg
    IMG_20210731_155656.jpg

    It's a 1997 Mk3 2.0L 8v with 85k on the clock. The pedal is very high so I'm assuming it needs a new clutch. The engine is dry. It seems to have an aftermarket exhaust and possibly upgraded brakes on the front.

    Logistically this is going to be tricky. We have a garage down the road but the driveway is sloped and there is a lip into the garage which I think is going to make rolling it in and out very difficult.

    The plan is to remove the engine and bring that to my garage for storage while we strip out what else is needed. We also intend to strip off anything that may be saleable and then get rid of the shell. Everything will then go back into the rented garage and be prepped. Clearly a new cam belt is sensible and a new clutch will be necessary.

    If you are interested in any parts that I won't be using let me know. They will be cheap.

    This will be as simple a swap as humanly possible. No widetracking, no head swaps, no power steering etc etc.

    So please educate me. What other parts will I need? What driveshafts for example. What will I need to modify? Clutch cable? Pedals? Engine mounts?.............
     
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  2. dodgy

    dodgy Paid Member Paid Member

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    Very nice, do like the green mk3s.
    Going to need the mk2 gti driveshafts, think it's still cable clutch on 8v so that's simple, rear engine mount bracket is different as mk3 has single bolt, mk2 has triple- can either swap mk3 subframe in or change mount, front mount is different too, may have have one of them, I'll have a look tomorrow. Mk3 Gearbox mount should fit.
    If not using power steering just remove pump and get a shorter belt to just run alternator but I would keep rack and column uj stuff just incase want to retrofit would need mk2 (or ibiza) outer track rods from pas version on it, sort of reverse what I've done on my mk2 with widetrack.
    Most of the wiring is plug and play as ce2, unsure of the immobiliser though as would need ignition pickup, few ways over that or possibly use the loom you had off me, dure someone more knowledgeable than me will know and enlighten.
    Think the later mk3 had a combined loom, not separate like the mk2 and earlier mk3, again others will know.
    Fuel tank swaps in just swap the breather off mk neck, filter bolts up to the mk2 studs underneath as far as I know, and loom from mk3 to run in tank pump will plug in to fusebox, add the relay.
    The mk3 wiper relay swaps over for programmable intermittent wipe.
    Sure there will be more bits, hope that's a start.
     
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  3. PhilRyder

    PhilRyder Paid Member Paid Member

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    Thanks Dave, as ever :thumbup: I'd like to know more about the power steering (complicated the thread already!) as with the heavier engine it could be useful. However, it would mean swapping the Mk3 rack into the Mk2? That's a load of extra work but could be done later as you suggest?
     
    dodgy likes this.
  4. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    if not going widetrack you will need:
    mk2 gti shafts
    mk2 1.6-1.8 complete gear linkage including gearstick assembly
    mk2 1.6-1.8 front, rear and gearbox mount brackets if using mk2 subframe. if using mk3 subframe you can use rear bracket but still need mk2 front and box
    mk2 1.8 8v gti exhaust front to back, or use mk3 manifold and downpipe plus decat pipe then either mk2 8v system with reducer or mk2 16v/g60 fits right on
    mk3 airbox is too wide, so need cone filter or mod upper part of mk3 airbox to mk2 digi airbox. or find a corrado or seat ibiza/toledo/cordoba 2.0 8v from correct engine code so MAF fits it (i.e. not 2E engine)

    use the mk3 dfuel system complete as said, bin the carbon canister system, run the outlet from the valve on the mk3 filler neck direct to the hole in the top of the mk2 rubber filler surround. strip the 4 wires for the mk3 fuel pump out the mk3 rear loom without cutting, then they plug straight into the mk2 fusebox. you can cut the black/white wire which is on the mk3 plug, this is for the sunroof

    wiring wise its same as doing an abf swap, this thread will help you ID all the plugs you do and dont need:
    https://clubgti.com/forums/index.php?threads/ce1-abf-splicing-of-looms-help.249714

    this thread has lots of wiring tips for abf swap which also apply to you:
    https://www.clubgti.com/forums/inde...r-mk2-golf-revisit-of-kjet-car-180610.133418/

    for immobiliser its dead easy, pull the box and reader coil out along with all the wiring to it without cutting. the black wire needs ignition live, earth just pop to the stud on A pillar. the diagnostics wiring just plugs in where needed. remove the diagnostics jumper block from above the fusebox. find the vagcom port next to the ashtray and pull it out of the dash harness. dont cut the grey/white wire, snip the red/white and brown where they tap to the ciggy lighter wiring. tap those to mk2 ciggy lighter wiring and plug it all in. you dont need the yellow wire so can cut it if it makes life easier.
     
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  5. valvemiester

    valvemiester Paid Member Paid Member

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    Nice project looking forward to seeing it progress I did a 2L conversion on my Calypso green Mk2 GTi using an AWG engine out of Mk3.5 cabriolet, kept it simple using the 2L block and everything else was standard Mk2 8v PB Gti,obviously you don't have that option, by the way mine is non pas and I dont find it to heavy on the steering. What are you doing regarding brakes, would it not be easier just to fit the lot front subframe, brakes, rear beam etc ?
     
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  6. PhilRyder

    PhilRyder Paid Member Paid Member

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    Brakes are already done. 280mm up front.

    @rubjonny I take it the back end of the Mk3 exhaust won't fit then?
    Do I need gear linkages because ours is a 1.3?
    Do I need to mess with pedals at all?
     
  7. Tristan

    Tristan Paid Member Paid Member

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    Small and big block Gear linkages are completely different. Pedals and pedal box should be fine.
     
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  8. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    Yeah rebuild the beam and swap over, you'll need to redo the rear lines to suit bias valve. The MK3 lines might go thinking about it

    Yeah the 1.3 shifter is totally different and the mk3 bits don't fit either because the tunnel is taller, you might get away with it though I guess

    Pedals all fine, but you need 1.6-1.8 clutch, accellerator and Speedo cables plus red Speedo gear on that note plus if it's a new cable need the circlip that holds the gear on too
     
  9. PhilRyder

    PhilRyder Paid Member Paid Member

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    Just to clarify the gear linkage requirement. Do I need everything from the gearbox back or just from the actuator rod back to the gear stick plus the gear stick? Our Mk2 is currently 4 speed.
     
  10. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    You need everything, including gearstick and rod from stick to bay, all bay linkages and lever bits and bobs from 1.6-1.8 MK2 golf. Compare the 1.3 stuff to the mk3 golf and you'll see all the bits you need, pretty much all the mk3 parts are different because the tunnel is taller unfortunatly.

    You can use the metal linkage rod with the big weight in the middle, but that's pretty much it
     
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  11. PhilRyder

    PhilRyder Paid Member Paid Member

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    OK, so as they say a pictures tells a thousand words and I'm a visual kind of guy.
    In the picture below I can keep E and the lever it attaches to at the gearbox, but I need to replace A, B, C and D. B being the bracket that mounts to the sub frame?

    IMG_20210805_152541211_LI.jpg
     
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  12. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    Yep nothing in that pic is any good except E.

    Although saying that you might get away with it, I've not heard of anyone trying those bots on a mk2 so who knows. As I say problem is mk3 tunnel is taller, so gearstick sits higher, all the linkage bits engine bay side are taller so they match up to it. If you used mk3 stuff in a MK2 the rod would be pointing upwards if you get me so unlikely it'll work very well

    Sort of thing you would be best asking about on the various 20v/FSI/etc conversion groups on Facebook as everyone I'm there will be binning all that stuff off in favour of 02a/j/m cable shift gearbox stuff
     
  13. PhilRyder

    PhilRyder Paid Member Paid Member

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    We have been doing some prep. Unfortunately we need to get the engine out in a day so getting ready is important. We did a partial run through or the procedure before started raining and we are going to do another prep on Saturday.
    Question - apart from drive shafts, exhaust and power steering hoses what else needs to be disconnected from underneath?
     
  14. Tristan

    Tristan Paid Member Paid Member

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    Gear linkages?
     
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  15. PhilRyder

    PhilRyder Paid Member Paid Member

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    Yes, possibly but hopefully just a couple from the top but while I'm under there.......
     
  16. rubjonny

    rubjonny Administrator Staff Member Admin

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    everything can be disconnected from above, even exhaust just take inlet off first. can be tricky getting to the inlet bolts and manifold nuts but with a good allen head tool + mirror and ring spanner you should be fine. power steering just pull both hoses off the pump, can get to those above. driveshafts I go in thru the wheel arches with a long socket extension(s), wheel off, screwdriver in brake disc cooling vanes remove bolt, pull screwdriver, rotate, refit screwdriver undo next bolt etc

    can take the downpipe off the cat instead if you prefer though, its only 3 nuts so easy enough
     
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  17. dodgy

    dodgy Paid Member Paid Member

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    The mk3 we stripped little while ago was really bad to get to the exhaust to manifold nuts, so removed engine with downpipe still attached, the cat flange fell off actually but would have needed grinding as the bolts were kaput. And we had to hacksaw the front crossmember as captive nuts had given up.
     
  18. valvemiester

    valvemiester Paid Member Paid Member

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    When I removed the engine and gearbox out of my mk3 GTi I removed it with downpipe still attached (as dogdy has stated( just had to remove the three bolts to the cat one bolt undid other two I drilled out.
     
  19. PhilRyder

    PhilRyder Paid Member Paid Member

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    Almost ready to take the Mk3 engine out.
    IMG_20210814_124223946.jpg

    The Haynes manual is actually a very good guide for this.
    Today we went to the lock up simply to see if we could jack it up in the garage and still have enough access and we sort just went on from there [:D]
    Every nut and bolts came undone easily except the gearbox mount which required some persuasion with penetrant and a bit of backward and forwards. I decided to leave the downpipe attached to the engine and detach the exhaust at the catalytic converter join. Of course there was no way those three bolts were coming undone so I had to borrow some electricity from the garage owner. This required two long extension leads laid across three peoples gardens :lol:. Angle grinder was fine for two bolts but the third needed the Dremel. Got there in the end.
    While under the car I undid all the driveshaft bolts which was easier than expected.
    So by being very methodical and lots of labelling we are pretty much ready to drop the engine. We have borrowed a hoist but I need a sheet of ply as the driveway is very rough which will make wheeling the hoist difficult. Not to mention it's on a slope so utmost care is in order. This should happen next weekend.
     
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  20. PhilRyder

    PhilRyder Paid Member Paid Member

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    Question. The Mk2 is a cable speedo and the Mk3 is electronic. @rubjonny mentions above that a new 1.6 - 1.8 Mk2 cable is needed. How does this fit? Does it slot in the same as the Mk3 but simply doesn't have an electronic connection? (New red gear and circlip noted ;) ).
     

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