No point in performance mods for old cars

oak green mk2 16v with 200k on original engine, totally standard and just sailed through the MOT. I can afford a new car but why, its fast enough to overtake most other cars with ease, handles very well and will do 40mpg when driven by a female. It's too old for the neds/scallies to want to nick it, costs 290 a year fully comp to insure and I keep on having notes left on the windscreen from people wanting to buy it....cheap, fast, reliable motoring with style and still puts a smile on my face at 7k in third....horses for courses and each to their own, I've got the best car I've ever had.
Like to see a clio at 17 years old and still up to the mark....and as for mk4s how many coil packs and air mass meters will you need in 200k?

 

Only in looks though.
The 997 is less like a 911 that any before it. The 996 still took learning and understanding, like the 993 before. The 997 doesn't do a lot of the things a 911 should do, in my mind.
It's almost too civilised, too refined...and dare I say not 911 enough.

The GT3 only puts things right...and is utterly brilliant in the right hands.

I've not driven the 997 facelift yet....but I'm led to believe it's even more competent than an early 997...which means less 911 like again.
Not something that will make me reach into my pockets for an upgrade.

After driving my 996, a mate of mine has just cancelled his order for an R8 because the R8 isn't as much fun to drive (faster, better built etc...but dull).
So he's recently been driving 997s with a view to buying...and has come away cold...not as involving as his current 993.
I think 996 GT3 is where he needs to be looking.


Which brings me back to Golfs...
The Mk5 may well be a superior car...but it's too easy...too good.
you get from A to B faster than before, you have power to spare...and you get out at the other end bored.
I still like my very-far-from-perfect Mk3 16v...as you have to actually drive it (like the Mk1 and Mk2 before it) which means it may well be slower, less powerful etc...but it makes me smile more than a Mk5 ever could.
And for me...that's what it's all about...

 

interesting post. i wasnt expecting to read that the 997gt3 would be particularly civilised/sensible, but then ive not even spoken to an owner of one before.

i wouldnt be suprised if your opinion on that causes some stink. my utterly honest opinion on driving an e46 m3 cab a while back was that it was dull. quick, but so civilised. one of those cars that even Mr Bean could get in and extract eight 10ths of the pace from. same with the couple imprezas ive driven. a point and shoot car does nothing for me, i prefer to be involved. im still a touch drunk from lastnight, but one analogy i can draw is its like the difference between putting a pron dvd in the dvd player and watching it, or actually doing the dirty deed yourself.

better to actually get invovled.

so, old cars worth modding. i suppose because theyre flawed to start with (hey, ive got a mk3) theyre still fun to drive afterwards?

 

I'd tender that if you cant have 'fun' in a 997 of any model derivative, or an M3, then maybe your idea of driving 'fun' is jusr different to other peoples?

It sounds to me like its a question of driving a Golf/Whatever at 100% its available power and making 100% use of the chassis. That is what the above 2 posters consider as 'fun'.

The 911/M3 thing is a different world altogether, those are machines where you just dont stop learning, and driving them, you can TELL that you're not as good as they are. Thus to the posters above, it equals less 'fun'.

Both any 997 911 and M3 (apart from the cab) are 100000x better at driving than you are, and people who CAN extract all out of the cars end up doing crazy things like low to mid 7s on the nurburgring.

I personally like the fact that I am constantly below the level of my car, so there is always opportunity for learning, getting better, getting more precise, and learning limits.

Again, its back to people personal attitude to fun, which is going to be different for everyone.

 

a car is a better driver than me?

i really highly doubt a normal m3 or 997 will lap the ring in under 8m, its only the really special models that are. not even sure of the CSL gets under 8m

being fun because youre able to use 100% of the power available? not really. i previously had a couple slightly over powered mr2 turbos. those cars were the nuts because they kept you on your toes. make a miscalculation and youll be in the weeds, or alternatively in a cosseting "Mr Bean could drive this at mach9" car, it would take you by the hand and make it all better for you

so flawed cars are fun, you have to pay attention to whats going on

civilised cars bore you because it takes almost no effort to drive ti quickly. its a Mr Bean car

hth

 

You know what I meant, that most peoples skills will not reach the cars limits with pretty much any modern 911 or M3.

Both are cars whos express purpose was to go very very fast and be the best driving cars that they could be. Cabriolets excluded obviously.

How on EARTH is a 911 or an M3 a civilised car? Maybe at 50mph yeah, and at 95mph, but actually driving car to the limits, they both will kill you as soon as you make any big mistake.

Maybe its just an experience thing, in that Ess Three I know talks about his fun being on Aberdeen B roads, and that you're pretty much the same.

Whereas I'm coming from a trackday kinda angle as I never drive fast on public roads where someone could be doing the same on the opposite side of the road.

Regarding the Nurburgring thing, Andy (cpufreak) regularly did sub 8 mins in his CSL last year. Some of the regulars in GT3 RS' make Andy look slow.

 

Again on the nurburgring thing I assume you arnt talking about a full lap, bridge to bridge? add aprox 25-30secs to the time to make it a full lap.

Edit: Good old wiki; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordschleife_fastest_lap_times

 

I'd be talking bridge to Gantry. You cant do a full lap unless its closed.

on the Virtualcup website theres a leaderboard thing, which holds GPS verified times.

VERY fast for TF days and indeed proving that 'standard' 911s and M3s are better than 99.9% of the drivers that own them.

 

This may be a moot point but doesn't mr bean drive a really east car?

 

Like a Nissan?



Rowan Atkinson has some kind of Aston Martin doesnt he...

 

Oops.
Typing on a phone, auto text on.

 

here is my 2p.

Chavs every where know what you pointed out so they go and do that,. What chavs know the workings of an indicator let alone an engine.

A true petrol head thou knows what works and what doesnt ok its a lot down to trial and error. But there you go.

Another reason is that where is the fun in plugging in a laptop and going hmmm i will use that,

No the fun comes from trial and error and seeing as well as hearing your work. Can a vr6 or a mk4 r32 ever sound as good as a set of twin webbers ??????????????????

No sorry the point to me in playing with old cars is that you have no stupid drivers aids and you have fun.

As has been stated go out and spend xxx amount on a mk4 or mk5 then have the same car as the lass who works at the local salon hmmmmmm nope.

Spend 600 on a mk2 spend some on it and have a car that is what YOU want and doesnt have what you DONT want . Some said spending 300 on an exhaust and 100 on an airfilter and peeps will think boy racer, thats only if they drive and act like one. spend that and 300 on a cam, 400 on a head and some other stuff Ok you have spent more than the car is worht but its your car .

At the end of the day some people like to spend money and have a car out of the box others like to build it up

 

I didn't say that it won't be fun.
But in a 'traditional' 911 way...the 997 just isn't.
It's civilised...as good a GT as a Sports Car.

Don't get me wrong...you can have great fun in any 911...but the 997 needs speeds where you go to jail, or crash and die, if you get it wrong.
The older 911s dont...
In a 996, it doesn't wake up 'till the wrong side of 80. comes alive at 120+.
The 993 its more like 60/100
The 964 40/80...
You get the idea...you simply cannot play with a modern 911 at real world, real everyday driver speeds like you could the classic 911s. They have become almost too good.

The 997 doesn't pitch and yaw like the 996, and all others before, PASM has virtually removed that. The steering doesn't wriggle in your hands, the electric steering software has virtually eliminated that.
In many ways...it's getting more mainstream and less 911.
No good thing for me...but good for Porsche profits when getting people new to 911s to buy one.

I agree...
But in a Golf, the 'fun' at 100% normally happens at low-ish speeds...which tends to help you live longer and keep your license longer.

I agree you never stop learning...
I'm still frightened of mine after nearly 4 years. I never stop learning...and the car is WAY better than me, which I'll freely admit.

But this doesn't equal less fun...the fun, to me, comes from the experience...the I still maintain, the 997 experience is sanitised next to all others before it - GTs excluded as I've not driven them to comment.
The older the 911, the more lairy the experience...so the fun happens at lower speeds...and with less grip, it's more accessible to your average non-God like driver.

Very true...
And as always, all personal comments are relevant to what you are used to or can properly compare to.
I still maintain the 911 is going 'mainstream'. No bad thing for Porsche...but a bad thing for people who like to actually drive the damn things, and get pleasure & fun from them, at sensible speeds.
...as with many modern cars...they are getting 'too good', too sanitised and too controlled by electronic safety nets....to the point that any ham-fisted fool can get stunning speeds point to point from them...they no longer take years to learn and perfect...which in some ways, is a shame.

 

I don't believe I said that.
The 997 IS more civilised and less 911 like than any version before...in terms of the accepted way a 911 drives.
The GT3 returns to the traditional 911 way...and more.
But the 'cooking' 997s are very civilised now...you can use one every day with little fear of it biting you in the ****. They don't do nearly as many 'odd' things as the older versions do...they don't move about as much, sound as intense, fidget as much etc.
Sanitised...

Not so, earlier versions...

 

True...Which is why people like me head to the 'ring to play hard.

Civilised in that anybody can drive one. My mother can drive mine...you can start and use it in all weathers (I have) and it'll do it's job.
Modern 911s come with certain safety features that should stop you making simple errors...of course you can always crash if you drive like a clot.
But a modern 911 is as happy at 30 MPH in 6th, as it is at 170+ on the GPS or hammering round the ring doing sub 9 minute laps. No drama...no fuss. To me, that's civilised.
The older versions are just as happy, but the driver need to input more to achieve it...he needs to actually drive the damn thing.
The 997 needs less 'driving' than the 996 did...and the 996 less than the 993...if you follow.

I drive on roads like this:


There is no harm in driving roads like that...billiard table smooth, good visivility and technically challenging. Where cars like the 911 and M3 shine (we had an E46 M3 SMG with us that day...but had him park out of camera shot!).
You can drive swiftly in relative safety...

Personally, I bought a 911 to drive on the road primarily...with trackdays a distant 2nd (my nearest track is 120 miles away) but I have 100s of miles of empty, stunning roads like that, within 30 mins.

 

a lad i know has a 1.6 stripped driver and that alone puts up agood fight against the new fiesta 2.0 st's

 

^^^^^^^^^haha so far off the mark its unreal.
its been a while since this has been brought up... does his stripped 1.6 driver have a GTI cam in it.

sorry newbie, you will find some people react badly to statements like my mates X is far quicker than car Y when in all fairness most of the time the person in car Y doesnt realise of doesnt care he is involved in a "race"

back on topic those of us on here who do have the older generations of golfs/polos/rados ie PRE90 cars have our reasons for it and because it is a older car that doesnt mean there is no point in performance mods. TBH that is just a pointless statement because older cars do respond very well to modifications and saying a 20vt can be chipped for 400quid an get 50hp is in no way comparing like for like. What about the people on here who have converted a mk2 driver or 8v to a ABF lump... thats more than a 50Hp increase and can easily be done for 400quid and will be faster than a chipped mk4.

The obvious answer is that a lot of people dont have 4k+ to blow on a 20vt mk4 which although can be chipped to 200hp would then need plenty of spent to rectify the handling and braking issues which will become even more apparent with the extra power. It has to be said that a mk4 needs to have 180+ hp anyway in order to match the power to weight ratio of a mk2 16v in STANDARD form so baring in mind a lot of 1.8 16v and 2.0 16v mk2s are running 160hp+ after a good set up WUR mod and breathing mods it is fair to say that a mk4 would then need 200+ hp to compete.

Dont forget its not just absoloute power that people are interested in. Lets face it most people buy a newer car for the number plate ie "keeping up with jones next door " the whole notion that a car is better because it is newer is just utter crap.

take a mk2 for example mine has electric windows, remote central locking, full leather interior, power steering, a better stereo set up than most standard cars etc etc so aside from Air Con EPS ABS TC BLAH BLAH and BLAH BLAH which are just acroynms which most people dont even know what they do other than make the car safer i mean boring i dont believe people who run older cars are missing out on that much compared to newer models.

 

My little driver could only just keep up with a 318 e30. It would have been blown out of the water by an st!

 

^^ sounds more plausable my old 318i was near enough 8v gti pace and we all know a 8v gti is different league to a driver.

could well be a driver with a GTI cam though...

 

And exhaust system. Lest you forget!

My old driver was stripped too so I had a massive weight advantage against my mates bimmer.

The st's we went out with a while back seemed to be on a par with my 2.0 16v mk2. Annoyingly.